Soring. For it, or against it? - Page 3
 
 

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Soring. For it, or against it?

This is a discussion on Soring. For it, or against it? within the Gaited Horses forums, part of the Horse Breeds category
  • Is there any way a big lick gait could occur naturally
  • Soring horses debate

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    06-03-2012, 12:51 AM
  #21
Trained
That is so so cruel
     
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    06-03-2012, 03:02 AM
  #22
Weanling
I am against this offensive practice. I would like to see these horses gait naturally. I personally find the Big Lick horses awkward looking and it makes me feel uncomfortable to watch them.
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    06-03-2012, 11:51 AM
  #23
Banned
Quote:
Originally Posted by Darrin    
Your definition of better breeding programs and mine are likely not anywhere close to the same.

Anyway, yeah a part of the horse industry will collapse but no where near enough to pull down the whole industry. Most horses never go anywhere near a show ring and do quite well without that function in our new society.

Now to explain my previous comment a bit more. The idea of showing is not a bad thing but human nature will not leave it that way. They want to win for money, ego boost or both. Now add in the judges, most I've met are self important know it alls but there are some good ones out there. These judges have their own ideas on what an animal should be and they reward those who fit into their ideals with wins. People take notice of what is winning and so start breeding for those traits specific traits. This usually leads to changing a breed into something totally new and quite often leads to detrimental changes. It also can lead to morally outrageous training methods to reach that ideal.

In the case of TWH industry both have happened. If you want a good big lick horse you need to start with a pacer. This has led to many lines losing their ability to naturally gait (see my previous statement about breeding programs) though they can still be trained to gait. Next comes the oh so pleasant training methods. Lastly comes standing ovations and accolades for winning that blue ribbon. Isn't showing oh so wonderful?

This doesn't just happen with horses. Pick any animal that is shown, go watch the shows with open eyes and see for yourself. FYI, I've also seen miserable execuses for a breed win just because the "right" person (well known trainer) was the one showing it when up against a bunch of average Joe nobodies.
Perhaps I stated myself wrong...

Yes, there are several shows that because of the Judges and the publics want for a certain something, several breeds (Not naming names) have gone down the ****ter. But the idea of showing for a better horse to bring in better money is something that is a real drive. I think if we can just get the shows grounded back into reality and not purely looks (though I wouldn't complain about a horse who looks **** fine while doing its job ); then we would get better examples of the breed. Reward those who do it right, and not those who take shortcuts.

Yes you are right; people sometimes get curious and we try to get things that are unnatural for a animal and try to put it in them... sometimes this works (most breeds are synthetic breeds that we created, nothing wrong with that), other times it is taken into the wrong hands and things like soring happens; and it is truely horrible, as a proud owner of a TWH half bred I am appalled by it.


And no, I do not think that the equine industry could support itself without shows, there would be less public eye on it and less people going to get into it, buying their own horses that would in return help keep our horse economy going. We need public events to keep drawing in crowds... we just need to find a safer, more humane way to carry out some of these public events. The horses don't care either way as long as they are well taken care of, treated properly and receive the "love" (for lack of better terms) from being in a herd of their own(humans count, many animals do follow us and accept us as their leaders and herdmates/packmates) and knowing they did what they were supposed too.

The problem lies with bad trainers, and the problem behind bad trainers are judges letting them get away with murder. I'll stop myself here, as anything further I do not have true insight on, and I don't wish to make myself look like an idiot


* I personally am not a show person, nor do I really have the drive to do it, but I respect those who do and appreciate them greatly. But the happy trails are my only calling.

I've stated my oppinion, and don't really have the time to debate it further, got lots of packing to do and four animals to get ready for the pet sitter Fun fun fun

Have a nice weekend! :)
     
    06-03-2012, 12:23 PM
  #24
Yearling
In the Old Day the horse show had a couple of important functions.

First, it was a showcase for breeders to present what they considered their best. A set of papers meant the horse met the minimums of a breed standard. The show circuit determined which pedigreed horses were the best representation of the breed standard. This would allow for intelligent selection of furture brood stock.

Second, it was a major entertainment event. Particularly in the South (but also in other areas) the "Saturday Night Horse Show" was a major social event. It was not just a bunch of rail classes, but included flat racing, jumping, and "fun events" like rescue races, water glass races, etc.

Today, the first function is pretty much gone. That leaves the second. The "entertainment" value is now primary. As long as something works up the crowd ("peanut rolling," rollkur, Big Lick, etc.) and fills the arena then it will continue.

G.
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    06-03-2012, 07:02 PM
  #25
Started
Quote:
Originally Posted by Tianimalz    
If you take out showing, you take out a huge chunk of the horse industry. You take out the horse industry- and better breeding programs will most likely also get cut short, and less horses will have a job and more will end up at slaughter or abandoned.
Rubbish. Take out showing and we would breed the same number of horses, just for other, better things.
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    06-06-2012, 07:19 PM
  #26
Foal
This showing debate needs to be taken to a new thread... In fact, I'll start it.

On TWH. I'm curious, are all those horses that show subjected to soring? Because I know what I saw in western pleasure didn't turn out to be "a few bad apples". I'm wondering if it's the same with Walking horse shows.
     
    06-08-2012, 10:18 AM
  #27
Weanling
Quote:
Originally Posted by RosiePosie06    
This showing debate needs to be taken to a new thread... In fact, I'll start it.

On TWH. I'm curious, are all those horses that show subjected to soring? Because I know what I saw in western pleasure didn't turn out to be "a few bad apples". I'm wondering if it's the same with Walking horse shows.
Well, not all horses in the performance/padded classes may be subjected to chemical or mechanical "soring," but (IMO) the division has required such extreme, unnatural movement that it no longer resembles the true Tennessee Walking Horse.

The Big Lick is not the way the horses are supposed to move. It's a perverse interpretation of what some judges saw (and liked) more than a half-century ago, and it just kept escalating.

The real irony is that people started doing the pads and chains and chemicals because their horses did not have the same quality of natural movement as others. So the "lower quality" horses started winning only because the owners/trainers were using artificial methods to make them stand out.

Then mare owners wanted to breed their mares to the "winners," so you end up with less naturally-talented horses producing the next generation.

Fortunately, not all TWHs went that route. . .there are still horses out there with the true, natural movement. And there are classes available (for those who choose to show) for flat-shod horses, including rail classes, dressage, jumping, trail, etc.
     
    06-08-2012, 12:51 PM
  #28
Yearling
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jolly Badger    
Well, not all horses in the performance/padded classes may be subjected to chemical or mechanical "soring," but (IMO) the division has required such extreme, unnatural movement that it no longer resembles the true Tennessee Walking Horse.

The Big Lick is not the way the horses are supposed to move. It's a perverse interpretation of what some judges saw (and liked) more than a half-century ago, and it just kept escalating.

The real irony is that people started doing the pads and chains and chemicals because their horses did not have the same quality of natural movement as others. So the "lower quality" horses started winning only because the owners/trainers were using artificial methods to make them stand out.

Then mare owners wanted to breed their mares to the "winners," so you end up with less naturally-talented horses producing the next generation.

Fortunately, not all TWHs went that route. . .there are still horses out there with the true, natural movement. And there are classes available (for those who choose to show) for flat-shod horses, including rail classes, dressage, jumping, trail, etc.
You have identified THE most perverse effect of the BL process. Soring is bad, but it affects only one horse at a time. The widespread use of action devices has damaged the genetic heritage of the TWH in a very serious way.

We must never forget that in the Light Shod and Plantation Divisions of the TWH show industry you've got judges looking for "JV BL Movement" and rewarding it appropriately. These movements are also grotesque shadows of the naturally moving TWH. While the stacks might not be used, everything else (including soring) is.

As long as the crowd cheers for this movment and the money rewards this movement this what the breeders will produce.

G.
     
    06-08-2012, 03:07 PM
  #29
Foal
I'm horrified. It's so unneccessary and not even pretty! They basically beat these horses into looking (in my opinions) completely ******ed... Is there any organization I can help out that's specifically fighting the Big Lick?
     
    06-08-2012, 03:25 PM
  #30
Green Broke
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jolly Badger    
Well, not all horses in the performance/padded classes may be subjected to chemical or mechanical "soring," but (IMO) the division has required such extreme, unnatural movement that it no longer resembles the true Tennessee Walking Horse.

The Big Lick is not the way the horses are supposed to move. It's a perverse interpretation of what some judges saw (and liked) more than a half-century ago, and it just kept escalating.

The real irony is that people started doing the pads and chains and chemicals because their horses did not have the same quality of natural movement as others. So the "lower quality" horses started winning only because the owners/trainers were using artificial methods to make them stand out.

Then mare owners wanted to breed their mares to the "winners," so you end up with less naturally-talented horses producing the next generation.

Fortunately, not all TWHs went that route. . .there are still horses out there with the true, natural movement. And there are classes available (for those who choose to show) for flat-shod horses, including rail classes, dressage, jumping, trail, etc.
Not only that, newer show people don't even know that it's not correct. When I decided to get into walkers I went out and educated myself on their gaits first. I then went looking, found one available that quite a few show people had looked at and decided not to buy. I go look at him and he never broke gait as an untrained youngster. Others would take off at a run and he would take off in a running walk. After buying him quite a few show people took a look at him and every single one of them turned their noses up, it shocked me. I later figured out that he didn't have enough "flash" for them and that's what they cared about. I'm not even sure half of them could recognize a proper gait when they saw it.
     

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