TWH's banned from 2010 equestrian games.WHY? RANT - Page 11
   

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TWH's banned from 2010 equestrian games.WHY? RANT

This is a discussion on TWH's banned from 2010 equestrian games.WHY? RANT within the Gaited Horses forums, part of the Horse Breeds category

     
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        02-07-2010, 06:24 PM
      #101
    Green Broke
    Oops for once I meant to keep my mouth shut, lol.
         
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        02-07-2010, 09:08 PM
      #102
    Green Broke
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by Honeysuga    
    So a horse suffering is now petty eh? Even if it is for a few minutes, it is still suffering, and knowingly doing it is abuse.
    I put it in quotes. Means I was sarcastic. Odd you didn't know that as you seem to be full of it yourself.
         
        02-07-2010, 10:21 PM
      #103
    Green Broke
    I was honestly asking if you felt this way Sunny, we aren't all sarcastic. I find this a very serious issue and honestly was bothered that you typed this. Since it was in type had no way of seeing that you were being sarcastic. You generally seem to be perfectly fine and even a supporter of pads and chains so what was I supposed to think?
         
        02-07-2010, 11:46 PM
      #104
    Started
    "My horse does not walk any different..." is your horse a well bred, well conformed American Saddlebred Horse with the inclination to move differently in certain situations? I have a Quarter Horse would would probably trip over a line drawn on the ground for as high as he lifts his knees. Putting anything on his feet would not "fix" this.

    When it gets warmer and I start working with my Saddlebred colt again I will do a video of him with chains. He's never had them on before. I will bet you anything he will not react to them. It will be like putting them on my sister's Quarter Horse. He's not going to react to them either. Just a hunch of mine from working with so many. However, another colt who also has never worn them, who is better bred, better conformed, and better inclined for the job will very likely react to them in the desired fasion.

    You will never convince me through your uneducated assumptions that my horses(as a breed, not just my own) are suffering, in distress physically or mentally, or in pain through the wearing of chains.

    But if you still maintain that they are, come to my barn and see for yourself. My gates are always open. Or I'd be happy to set you up with a barn tour of a barn near you.
         
        02-07-2010, 11:57 PM
      #105
    Green Broke
    Who says everyone who believes chains are wrong is uneducated? That is a little ignorant on your part to assume that.

    There is no logical way that these horses react more "just because", as opposed to any other saddlebred you deem unworthy of showing. Unless they are in fact more reactive I.e. Bothered by the chains due to their breeding and personality.

    What logic do you use to support your claim? All you keep using is opinion, what sound reasoning are you coming from? Years of experience with chains? What you were taught buy other people who use chains? That you just "know"? A few hundred years ago people just "knew" the earth was flat, that black cats were evil, that the bubonic plague was the work of sinister forces... Just "knowing" is what causes such mistreatment in the first place, it is called uneducated ignorance.
         
        02-08-2010, 12:16 AM
      #106
    Started
    Who taught me? Trainers, teachers, and hands on experience.

    Uneducated in the use of chains? Yes, I believe you are. Just reading the progression of this thread has proved that you have no real experience with the issue, just things you have read. You read something and twist it to support your assumptions. How many American Saddlebred Training Facilities have you been to? How many Saddlebred horses have you worked with for any Saddleseat division? Do you even know what it takes to get a horse to competition level? Could you evaluate a horse for his potential in that division? Really, without the hands on training and experience, I would be very surprised at your success.

    Yeah, you know what? My Saddlebred colt is EXTREMELY "unworthy" of even being tried to become a show horse. He is not built for it. A forward headed, natural gaited, little colt with the range of motion equivalent to that of a grade Quarter Horse is definitely unworthy of even being tried. He would not be happy. I would not be happy at all the work and inevitable failure that would come of trying. I'll put them on for the heck of it one day when it gets warmer because it will be interesting to test my theory that he will not react to them.

    All I am using is opinion based off of years of experience actually working with many different saddlebred horses, watching many different saddlebred trainers, and learning from all of my experiences. You'll never see me comment on the troubles that say, the dressage world has, because I don't have the experience there to make an educated comment on it.

    I "know" because I have worked to learn it. I have been in the barns, studied the horses, studied the trainers. I am very educated in my breed and training practices. None of this "suffering" have I ever seen in my horses because of chains. I am sorry, but making these assumptions is absurd, unless you have spent the time with as many of this particular breed as I have.
         
        02-08-2010, 03:14 AM
      #107
    Green Broke
    Just like the Trainers, teachers, and hands on experience of the people who sore TWH's? They will swear up and down it does not hurt the horses, that they were bred to do it, that they are in no pain whatsoever. Then again some of them will also say that horses do not feel too...

    No I have never worked with a SB, but I do understand basic psychology( I am a double psych and sociology major after all) and that tells you that a horse(or person or any living being) will not continue to react to a stimuli unless unless the stimuli is irritating enough that it feels the need to escape it.

    I do not twist what I read, and I don't read propaganda unless you call case studies and University experiments and articles propaganda... I take the information I know and apply it where it fits.

    With the chains, if it looks and quacks like a duck and waddles its little legs then I call it a darn duck! Horses will not go out of their way and put in that much effort to get something off if does not bother them, I do not get how you can deny that???? I guess it is the same way that people deny that dinosaurs ever existed and believe that there is a big man up in the sky that will smite you if you do bad... it is what you were taught.

    So you say(with the whole chains discomfort and irritation thing) that because you do not see it it isn't there? Ok. Basic sociology, if you believe it enough it becomes true in your world. You make yourself believe it and refuse to listen to any logic but your own and what you have been taught.

    Can you honestly give me a reason that the horses continue to react to the chains if they do not bother them? Not the whole walking in snow thing, Tom walks perfectly through snow and mud and high grass after he has been in it for a bit... And not the whole "stepping out of them" thing, as has been said, they wouldn't try to escape them if it didn't bother them, when a horse becomes desensitized to something they stop reacting to it. And so does every other horse I have ever been around... But a black and white reason for their continuing reaction?
         
        02-08-2010, 11:14 AM
      #108
    Weanling
    It's the combination of the chains and the pads (actually, mostly the pads) that bothers me about the BL horses, but Macabre raises an interesting question about why a horse would feel like it needs to "step out of" the chains for its entire show career.

    If you've ever put splint boots, polos or standing wraps on a horse that has never worn them before, they have a similar reaction to putting booties on a dog. They walk funny, lifting each leg up high because they aren't used to the feeling of something on their legs. But eventually, they get over it and they don't do that every time you wrap them.

    Then again, wraps and splint boots don't move around every time the horse moves its leg. . .
         
        02-08-2010, 11:53 AM
      #109
    Started
    Quote:
    Just like the Trainers, teachers, and hands on experience of the people who sore TWH's? They will swear up and down it does not hurt the horses, that they were bred to do it, that they are in no pain whatsoever. Then again some of them will also say that horses do not feel too...
    Unlike the scum who sore, condone soring, and "train" by soring(that is not training), one thing every Saddlebred trainer knows is that you cannot sore a Saddlebred to achieve an elevated, even trot. For the sake of science, I invite you to conduct your own personal study on the subject. Come to Tattersalls, pick up a few cheap prospects, and experiment. Just tell yourself it is all for the sake of science. You'll be one of probably many to try and fail.

    Our horses very much do feel. Our horses must be sound, and expressive. They are very quick to express their feelings. I know many champions who, if they are in pain, are flat dangerous. American Saddlebreds do not have a high tolerance for pain either. You lose their minds REAL QUICK through pain. A major thing for us is a horse "using his ears", "looking through the bridle", meaning they have to have their ears up and look happy about it. Broke my heart to see a horse we raised go into the ring at Louisville with an expressionless eye and his ears pinned. He did not place well and that was a contributing cause. Thank goodness for his new owner and trainers. They are fixing him well.

    Yes, I was taught to use them by people who used them before me. They explained it, and I could see the form to function through HANDS ON experience. If you have no idea how something works, you are more likely to use something incorrectly. How better to learn than from someone who already knows. I am sure that is how you learned to get your degree. You didn't just learn it all yourself? Of course not.

    There is no major for Saddlebred Trainers. If so, I would be on a lifetime course in the Saddlebred Education Field. Our graduation is to prepare a horse for the championships. To graduate with honors is to place.

    Quote:
    I do not twist what I read, and I don't read propaganda unless you call case studies and University experiments and articles propaganda... I take the information I know and apply it where it fits.
    When said that the horse thinks it needs to step out of something, you have then twisted that to where the horse is in serious mental distress, which is not the case. Without hands on study, how can you make this claim?

    Quote:
    So you say(with the whole chains discomfort and irritation thing) that because you do not see it it isn't there? Ok. Basic sociology, if you believe it enough it becomes true in your world. You make yourself believe it and refuse to listen to any logic but your own and what you have been taught.
    I believe in evidence. I have sought out the answers first hand. I didn't just take tid bits of information and twist them to fit my own assumptions. You get something before you. You test. You test. You test. You compare data. You do field work. You test some more. You come up with an answer through study, tests, and data. Maybe when you gain enough evidence to support your thoughts and theories then you can make an educated statement pertaining to the subject.

    Quote:
    Can you honestly give me a reason that the horses continue to react to the chains if they do not bother them? Not the whole walking in snow thing, Tom walks perfectly through snow and mud and high grass after he has been in it for a bit... And not the whole "stepping out of them" thing, as has been said, they wouldn't try to escape them if it didn't bother them, when a horse becomes desensitized to something they stop reacting to it. And so does every other horse I have ever been around... But a black and white reason for their continuing reaction?
    "Irritating" does not equate to "suffering", "pain", "distress". Flies irritate and illicit a response. MANY flies in excess and ferocity can cause mental stress and the wretched biting ones cause pain. Chains used properly do not cause pain, distress or suffering. Large chains used improperly, or chains used in conjunction with soring cause pain.

    The only set of chains MEANT to cause pain are kicking chains, and I have seen people from every discipline in the horse world from racing to hunt seat to western and dressage use them when needed. Those are supposed to hurt, though they are not applied like action chains.

    Our horses are not desensitized to them. That is the point. We want our horses to react to them, and how they react is by trying to step out of them. They are put on for work, and then removed. If they were not there to create a reaction, then they wouldn't be there at all. They are not play pretty jems we put on for looks. If we wanted something shiney on their feet we could just glitter spray their hooves.

    Chains are not the only thing used to achieve this "stepping out of" affect. Leather bands work sometimes, but the horses are often desensitized to those. Chains are very flexible and move and sound differently than a straight leather band. Metal chains are not always used, though those are the most common. Plastic chains are used as well, though those are more easily broken and lost. I said this before, but my friend's horse only needed to feel a string of fishing line(could that possibly hurt? Seriously?) in order for her to react accordingly.

    The chains do not distress the horse. They do not make them angry or upset. They don't induce panic in them. I have seen all of these emotions in Saddlebreds, and not once because of the chains. Our horses don't think that way. If they panicked and felt they HAD to escape, such as they would a predator, there would be no trotting. There would be no collection. There would be blind panic. Running, bolting, spinning, climbing the walls, flipping over backwards... You can't train a horse when he is in a panic. Go put a pair of leather dog collars around Toms pasterns(since I am sure you wouldn't want to spend $10-$60 on a pair of action chains). See what he thinks. He might take a few awkward steps, but likely will forget about them before too long.

    A thorn branch caught in the tail is about the only reason I have seen my horses flaming upset over something touching their back legs. I wonder why? Maybe it was all those little points stabbing them and causing pain.

    Tom is not a Saddlebred. I am guessing he isn't conformationally comparable to a Saddlebred either. I would assume he doesn't move like a saddlebred, or think like one either. I would bet the only time his knees come above his chest are when he is getting up after laying down. I would bet that no matter what you did to him, you couldn't make him trot like a quality Saddlebred. I would bet that he moves like his breed, whatever he may be. I would bet that he can only do what he is capable of doing. My sister's QH doesn't trot like a Saddlebred in snow or high grass. He trots like a QH, neck out in front of him, legs plodding along. My low-quality Saddlebred colt doesn't either. He is not built for it. He is forward headed, and not capable of bringing his feet up. My broodmare who is a fine example of an American Saddlebred trots like a hackney pony on bare ground. Even my fat little girl can put her knee above level and she was never even started as a Show Horse due to an injury. I don't think she has worn a pair of chains before either... if she has it has been 10 years ago.

    The horse is the one who decides if he is going to react to them or not. The chains do not force the horse to do anything.

    American Saddlebreds are bred UP. They are born with their necks UP. They are born with thier tails UP. They are born with their knees UP. As with anything, you must condition and train for the correct movement and response. Yes, our horses can trot out in the field over level. We still have to teach them to do it when asked. We have to teach them that, yes, that is how we would like them to move, just as if we were going to put one in dressage, we would have to take his natural ability and condition it for the discipline.

    I will say it again, though no one ever takes me up on the offer. Anyone who wants to come investigate at my farm, and see how our horses are trained, or if they would like me to help them set up a tour with a barn near them, I would be glad to help.

    (BTW: QH folks, I am not ragging on the QH. I keep bringing them up because they are about as far away from a Saddleseat Saddlebred as you can get.)
         
        02-08-2010, 12:22 PM
      #110
    Green Broke
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by LadyDreamer    

    "Irritating" does not equate to "suffering", "pain", "distress". Flies irritate and illicit a response. MANY flies in excess and ferocity can cause mental stress and the wretched biting ones cause pain. Chains used properly do not cause pain, distress or suffering. Large chains used improperly, or chains used in conjunction with soring cause pain.
    Ok let me first start by saying that I am NOT asking this to be argumentative, but just to LEARN...so don't take this the wrong way, it's not meant to be taken that way.

    That said, can you explain to me how the chains are NOT irritating to the horse if the horse ALWAYS wants to step up out of them and never gets used to them, returning to its natural gait? As others have said, you get the same response when you put polo wraps on a horse's back legs if he's not used to it, but after a couple times of using them, he ignores them because he's used to them.

    So just wondering why chains continue to produce the "unconfortable, irritated" effect time after time and the horse never gets used to them?
         

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