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Debate psychotropic drugs with me!!!

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        04-06-2011, 05:15 PM
      #11
    Showing
    I'm even more interested now to watch the video. Its been shown through many, many studies that depression is due to chemical imbalances.
    I can speak to that point. In the past year, I have been on a number of hormone treatments to get a physical problem under control. Each of those hormone treatments made me feel completely differently - just due to the hormones alone. They're amazingly mighty things, and unless you've experienced it, you won't understand it - which is unfortunate. Hormones and other chemical reactions in the body are amazingly powerful.
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        04-06-2011, 05:36 PM
      #12
    Started
    There's no denying that hormones & other chemical reactions are extremely powerful within the body. It's that the little men in white coats in the labs have formulated chemicals which, for so many, have had devastating, rather than healing, effects.
         
        04-06-2011, 05:43 PM
      #13
    Yearling
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by Northern    
    There's no denying that hormones & other chemical reactions are extremely powerful within the body. It's that the little men in white coats in the labs have formulated chemicals which, for so many, have had devastating, rather than healing, effects.

    If there are too many side effects or the side effects are way worse than what the drug is treating, the FDA will not approve the drug.

    I work in the pharmaceutical industry and more than once, I've been working on projects only to find out months later the drug was either, not approved or yanked off the market. Mainly due to side effects.

    If drugs are used correctly and you report EVERYTHING to your doctor, there is less chance of something devastating happening.
         
        04-06-2011, 06:06 PM
      #14
    Green Broke
    What an interesting topic. I don’t any personal experience with mental disorders; however I have been involved in the field of medicine for a number of years now. As such, I have a couple of points to make both for and against the arguments made in the video, I really don’t think anyone will read it all but here you go anyway:

    Where I disagree with the video:
    The video mentions the difficulty in medicating something that “isn’t physically there” and the notion that these disorders are not real has been disproven more than once. I can’t see electricity but I know it is real because I see the effects and I can measure the voltage. Same principle. Disorders such as bipolar, depression and schizophrenia are very real and very diagnosable. There are important neurological molecules involved in each disorder that are quantifiable and can be shown to have significant differences between patients and non-sufferers for example serotonin, dopamine, p11 protein, acetylcholine, noradrenalin etc etc etc. These conditions are very real, especially for those who suffer from them.

    Where I agree with the video:
    The actual mechanism of each disorder (i.e. Why and how regulation of certain neurotransmitters goes awry) is not clearly understood. We see the effect but the cause is notoriously hard to define. Likewise for the treatments, we know they can work for some people but the exact mechanism is not understood. They do not work for ALL people, probably because it is exceedingly difficult to prescribe the correct treatment when you are not quite sure what you are up against and how it developed. To further complicate matters, such disorders are usually not black and white scenarios; we see a spectrum of effects, from those with mild, infrequent symptoms to those with chronic severe symptoms. Hence it is impossible to develop an all encompassing treatment for everyone that suffers from it. Usually the treatment plans are “hit and miss” until the patient finds something that works for them. The consequences of trying numerous psychotropic agents that may or may not offer benefit puts the individual under considerable duress and the treatment may actually be worse than the condition. It happens.

    Additionally, it is my personal belief that pharmaceutical companies are guilty of marketing their products to those who don’t necessarily need it. It is a money making industry after all, anyone who thinks that Big Pharma creates drugs to rid society of suffering is sorely mistaken, it is a business. Fortunately one of the by-products of that business is useful treatments for many diseases and disorders.

    So should such treatments be prescribed if so little is known about them? Well, as with many situations in medicine, it depends. Of course I am in two minds on this one as well:

    Yes treatment should be available and recommended:
    For many people, such treatments are their only option to living within society and as an independent individual. Look at it this way: It is estimated that up to 30% of adult homeless people suffer from long term mental illness, severe mental disorders are not conducive to leading successful independent lives and individuals are commonly shunned by society. Next time you see a homeless person, ask yourself “How did you get here? Could it have been prevented somehow?”

    No treatment shouldn’t be prescribed:
    If the person is capable of functioning and isn’t a risk to themselves or others then I don’t believe that medication should necessarily be the only answer. We live in an over medicated world as it is and it is interesting here in the US the death like grip Big Pharma has on the medical industry. Did you know that the US is the only developed country in the world that allows Direct To Consumer Marketin (DTCM)? There is a reason it is banned in most countries: It creates hysteria, convinces people that they have conditions that they don’t necessarily suffer from and the end result is that the patient goes to the doctor having already decided on their own prognosis. Well, that is backwards. There is a very good reason doctors spend all that time and effort in medical school – to make informed and correct decisions for the patient.

    I am all for holistic approaches with respect to medical conditions and believe that the human body is capable of incredible feats of healing if we just give it the right environment and enough time. I also believe that there comes a time when the healing power of nature isn’t sufficient, and that is when modern medicine should step in and assist.

    Lastly I want to say that with all mental disorders, it is an intensely personal decision, to be made by the individual after consultation with family and close friends with input from several medical professionals. There is no right or wrong answer, just what is right for THAT person at THAT time.
         
        04-06-2011, 07:40 PM
      #15
    Trained
    Gosh. I could type pages on this, but instead I'll just try and summarize.
    Here's my main points...

    1)For some people, SSRIs/psychotropic drugs/etc are extremely helpful. For some people, they can be the best way to make life managable to the point that you can start making changes in therapy/life/general functioning.

    Notice I say 'people' not 'illnesses'. It's important for the professional to treat the individual, not the disease. If a person has come to you diagnosed as bipolar, it's important to resist the urge to start giving them meds for it and instead look at the situation as a whole.

    2) Medications being advertised on TV or in the media is a very new invention. Before it was the doctor who advised you to go on medicine XYZ. Now, it's not uncommon for the patient to have self diagnosed themselves and done some googling or watched a few commercials and is now convinced they need to be on drug X to be 'fixed'

    3) Some mental illnesses are episodic. Some are chronic. If you are depressed because you just had a breakup/death/trauma. Chances are you do not need medications. Therapy can help, in these cases, but meds are fairly useless unless it is something like Adivan (fast acting relief for anxiety).
    However if you chronically suffer from depression/mania/whatever... medications may be something for you and your psychiatrist to look into.

    4) The patient needs to understand who they are talking to. Who do you need to go to for your problems? A Psychiatrist? Therapist? LCSW? School Counselor? Cognitive Therapist? These all fall under the mental health spectrum. All of them can get you on medications one way or the other (though fastest route is generally a Psychiatrist). But all of them usually use different models of understanding. For instance, if you go to a therapist who believes in the biological model he believes that mental illness is caused by inaccurate firings or neurons/imbalances, etc. They often use drugs as a first route.

    However if you go to say a Cognitive Behavioral Therapist, they will believe that you can change how you think and react to help fix your problem. Understanding these classifications can be helpful.


    ---

    I think we are overmedicating. Not only is it the doctors, but is the parents and patients who are looking for a quick fix and the doctors are more then willing to attempt to give it to them. If you've ever tried to find the right drug for you though you know it can be a long delicate process.

    It's so important to understand what you are attempting to treat and make your own decisions. Sure, that's the doctors job. But it's much easier to push a drug and please then pharmaceutical reps and that's the unfortunate truth. It's an ethical dilema, but I don't think it's a question of if psychotropic drugs work or not. They do. But they are not a cure-all.


    ETA::
    Someone mentioned it's a medical doctor, not a psychiatrist who has to give you medication. Plenty of times this is not true. Psychiatrists are different from psychologists (or therapists, counselors, lcsws, etc) in that they have gone to medical school and are MDs. They will start in a generalist doctor program and then specialize in psychiatric medicine. A psychiatrist (MD) CAN prescribe medication. A Psychologist (PhD) can not.
         
        04-06-2011, 07:55 PM
      #16
    Yearling
    Wow- you are all good... it is clearly not a one sided issue... I am not sure what this guy is selling so as to steer him away from pharmaceuticals... I actually listened to the whole video, which was nearly three hours long. I was noticing the marketing in the video of the soothing music and the sound of the guys voice..... I am betting those make things more marketable, eh?

    I agree that the treatment is an intensely personal one, but I also fear the side effects, regardless. I have the same feeling about cleaning my room, or any room, as Poisiden has. I love list. I constantly think but I have been told I do not have ADHD or ADD.

    It is interesting and I wonder what their set criteria are for you need pills or you have nothing.....
         
        04-06-2011, 08:05 PM
      #17
    Trained
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by Citrus    

    It is interesting and I wonder what their set criteria are for you need pills or you have nothing.....
    The DSM is the manual for diagnosis. They will be coming out with the new one shortly. So for instance say for ADD the criteria is: *
    INATTENTION
    (need 6 of 9)

    Often fails to give close attention to details or makes careless mistakes in schoolwork, work or other activities
    Often has difficulty sustaining attention in tasks or play activities
    Often does not seem to listen when spoken to directly
    Often does not follow through on instructions and fails to finish schoolwork, chores, or duties in the workplace (no if oppositional behavior or doesn’t understand instructions)
    Often has difficulty organizing tasks and activities
    Often avoids, dislikes, or is reluctant to engage in tasks or activities that require sustained mental effort (such as schoolwork or homework)
    Often loses things necessary for tasks or activities (e.g., toys, school assignments, pencils, books, or tools)
    Often easily distracted by extraneous stimuli
    Often forgetful in daily activities
    HYPERACTIVITY-IMPULSIVITY
    (need 6 of 9)

    Often fidgets with hands or feet or squirms in seat
    Often leaves seat in classroom or in other situations in which remaining seated is expected
    Often runs about or climbs excessively in situations in which it is inappropriate (in adolescents or adults, may be limited to subjective feelings of restlessness)
    Often has difficulty playing or engaging in leisure activities quietly
    Is often "on the go" or often acts as if "driven by a motor"
    Often talks excessively
    Often blurts out answers before questions have been completed
    Often has difficulty awaiting turn
    Often interrupts or intrudes on others (e.g., butts into conversations or games)
    REQUIREMENTS

    Present at least 6 months, maladaptive and inconsistent with development level
    Some symptoms that caused impairment were present before age 7
    Some impairment from the symptoms is present in two or more settings (e.g., at school {or work} and at home)
    There must be clear evidence of clinically significant impairment in social, academic or occupational functioning







    It does not actually tell you the treatment. The doctor or psychiatrist should know how SSRIs, Anti Anxieties, whatever will work and where they have a history of being beneficial and to what age group but it is then up to the client to work with his doctor/therapist/team to figure out an accurate care plan. Since you must treat the entire patient, this should not just be medication. So you may add therapy or changes in behavior to help treat the illness.

    Basically it can be very arbitrary and up to personal opinions, models of treatment, or values. There is no 'Treat illness A with Drug Z to make it go away'



    *Source: http://www.mental-health-today.com/add/dsm.htm
         
        04-06-2011, 08:26 PM
      #18
    Green Broke
    I was diagnosed with ADHD when I was 6 years old. I was on Aderoll, Medidate, Riddilin (dont mind my spelling of any of these), or any other kind of drug they shoved down my throat thinking itll shut me up. From 2nd grade till 6th grade I got straight A's. But I was also only 65 pounds, and had serious social problems. I had no friends, and I was endlessly tormented by the other kids. I wouldnt eat, I wouldnt talk, and I wouldnt sleep. When I came home from school every day I would sit on the couch and color till bed time. Weekends I was allowed to be off my meds, I can remember sitting outside on my swingset for hours crying and hating myself, wishing I was dead. I felt trapped inside my own body. When I was 10 years old I tried to kill myself because of those stupid medications I was on. At the time I didnt see any other way out. I tried not taking them, but my parents started to make me take the meds infront of them to be sure that I didnt throw them away.

    For a long time I hated my parents for putting me threw that. I always told them they ruined my life. But as I got older I realized they were only trying to help and did what they thought was best by me. My therapist (who has been seeing me and my family since I was 4, who is also an MD) was the one who suggested I be put on the medications. She has always been "pro drug" and still suggests I take some kind of medication to help me focus. I have been considering it lately since college is taking its toll on my mind. But in regards to when I was younger I feel it could have been handled and dealt with in a much better manner. I completely agree with the statement that we are "over medicating" doctors, therapists, etc are so quick to push drugs on you.
         
        04-06-2011, 08:32 PM
      #19
    Trained
    Your post just breaks my heart, Delete. So many of these drugs are not made for children. Their brains are growing and developing so much that these meds can cause a lot more harm than good. I feel like medication should be the last ditch effort for young children.
    The US and UK have an INSANELY high diagnosis of ADD and ADHD. Not only are they over medicating, but in many instances they are overdiagnosing. Problems that are just normal child behavior are getting treated with medicines. These illnesses are a huge problem if you have them, but I feel theres a lot of issues going around with the diagnosis and treatment of children.


    /Rant
         
        04-06-2011, 08:37 PM
      #20
    Green Broke
    The worst part was, they combined drugs with me because they felt one wasnt enough. I was on aderoll& riddilin at the same time when I was 8-11
         

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