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Do I Move On?

1K views 14 replies 12 participants last post by  DanteDressageNerd 
#1 · (Edited)
I have a 20 year old warmblood, who is an advanced dressage horse and competed a lot, he is a lovely horse but, and here's the but, he is super difficult. He has not had an easy life, he's been forced into a double bridle at a young age, I'd say he has been hit a bit too, shoved into an incorrect bend and flexion, and honestly fried a little. I got him 2 and a half years ago and have done lots of exercises to build trust and develop a relationship with him. He has come so far, he trusts me very much and we get a long great on the ground, yes he is very flighty and nervous, but if you take your time he is okay. He has come a long way, but he has cracked it now. When I ride him now he will kick out with his hind legs, rear, jump up in the air, double barrel. I have tried EVERYTHING to try and get him to stop. I have done different things with him, taking him on trail rides, tried some jumping, ground exercises, tried some western things with him. Changed saddles, bridles, bits, boots. Had a massage therapist, chiropractor, vet, all say he is fine and physically there isn't anything wrong and I've had second opinions. I've changed his diet, cut out grain, tried different products. He now gets all natural stuff to prevent any arthritis, and keep any at bay and him to be pain free. And he will run around in the paddock bucking and behaving like a 2 year old.

I am so tired of dealing with this every time I get one, we have the same fight everyday, he simply does not want to go forward and will do just about anything to get out of it. I have thrown away the contact, still no, ride on a lose rein, still no. I am thinking he is just sour and doesn't want to do it anymore. I have done everything and he can just be downright nasty at times, I have always treated him well, and I don't really think he has any respect, to be honest, he can be very rude. The last time I competed him, he warmed up great. Then he got in the ring and threw a massive fit! He wasn't nervous, there wasn't anything scary and he had been there heaps before and the weather was fine. He kept backing up, refused to go forward, kicked out his hind legs, threw his head in the air, shied at everything he could find. And peed! In the middle of the test, I was gutted, because I have put so much work in and it was an FEI comp, and for him to behave like that. All the judges said was disobedient, refusing, uncooperative and so on. I don't know what it was but he cracked it big time.

I have big dreams, and I need a horse that wants to work with me, I think it is time to move on and part ways with him. I have done everything and I am still nowhere. I just want some peoples opinions if they've been in similar situations. It breaks my heart because I love my horses, but I can't keep going with him, it is just to hard with him. Ive worked for years with him and he has just shut down and won't go any further. He will argue everyday and will keep going. Most of the time I've been riding him its been 80% bad 20% good, and its just going downhill fast. I am very positive and don't get involved, but it does nothing. It is such a hard decision and honestly I need a little reassurance that I am doing the right thing for me, Ive always done whats right for him but I am tired now. Thank you for reading and I hope you guys can give me some reassurance and tell me if you've been in similar situations. I should also add, I am an amputee, so Ive been taught to ride from my seat and core. I don't want him to totally flip it one day and hurt me.
Thanks! :)
 
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#3 ·
Hi;
Not that I think you are wrong or anything like that, but....A 20 year old horse with no arthritis or pain?? I just find that hard to imagine. Every older horse I have known has had pain somewhere.
I would think saddle fit by the way he is acting.
I guess if you want someone to tell you to get rid of him and start over again, I am not the one. Sorry.
I got my horse when she was 18 years old. She was a nut case and I was an idiot. I worked with her with many different "trainers" before I found one that could actually help. It took me years and years to be able to trust her and have her trust me. Really, years, like three years. In that time I found out all sorts of things about her and learned a ton. She had to have a saddle custom done for her because she couldn't wear an off the shelf saddle due to her back and withers. I had a saddle fitter come out and spend the day with us getting a saddle on her that was comfortable. That made a huge difference.
You think you did bad on your test? No. The very first test I did with her she was horrible. I was so nervous and she was out of her bobble headed llama mind. We actually invented a new dressage style called bobble headed Llama dressage. She left the arena. Not once but multiple times.
As if that wasn't bad enough, Great horse whisperer me said "I know we can do better than a sympathy 58" And then it was just so stupid and humiliating. This time when we left the arena we bolted up a hill and right through a group of very stylish clean dressage riders with their well behaved horses. The judge thought that since it was a schooling show she could take that time and "help" me and my horse. Silly judge. The resulted in us starting and restarting 6 horrible painstaking to embarrassed to live times. That's right, we couldn't even get to the point where I salute. It was an epic fail and on my test sheet it said "Horse seemed angry and left the arena"
I spent the next year and a half trying to learn all I could. I worked for the Dressage trainer for about a year and a half. I rode many different horses a day and became competent on the ground and in the saddle. My confidence was only exceeded by my modesty.


The next year I tried again. After all I had been working at this a long time and had shown other horses in the mean time. We actually got down the center line and I managed to salute right as her French braid I paid someone to do fell out. It was all down hill from there. She spooked and bobble headed llama ed it right out of the stupid arena again. Got her back and the judge rang the bell and told me we were disqualified for some stupid idiotic reason like leaving the arena. Whatever. Then I got the talk. On that test score sheet I also had a horse seems angry left the arena.


I decided to stop trying to ride her in dressage tests after that. She did though become an excellent trail horse and a great riding horse. She is the horse now that every one wants around if their horse is upset.


But it sounds to me like you are more interested in reaching some goals in dressage, real dressage, not bobble headed llama dressage. If that is the case then maybe this isn't the horse for you. If you are not clicking with the horse and you are not liking the horse anymore then by all means find the horse another home. But be careful with who you sell him to. There are allot of bad people out there.


Do try to remember that the horse isn't doing what they are doing because of any sort of human feeling or emotion. It is, a horse and thinks like a horse and has no intention of "making you mad" or "embarrassing you". It just wants whatever is happening to stop for whatever reason.
 
#5 ·
Usually if a horse starts off alright and gets worse there is a reason for that. And if you don't address that now you could run into it again and again.

The other issue is, as said before, who will buy him at his age with his behaviour? What does "parting ways" look like to you?
 
#7 ·
If this was a young horse then I might be more inclined to try to give you some advice but at 20 years old and by the sound of it has worked hard and not always sympathetically I just think you might be better off parting company with him and starting afresh with something younger and less problems
 
#8 ·
I cannot relate to your situation, but I do have sympathy for you because it sounds like it's been such a long strenuous road for you with this horse. It does sound like you've done just about all you can to help him. It doesn't seem like he may be the horse for you if you want to compete, but as for selling him...that is a question, where would he go? I doubt most people would buy him and keep him or even try because they probably wouldn't have the patience like you have had with him all this time. He may even be sent to the 'meat man', it's hard to sell a horse like that. If you cannot sell him to someone who would care for him like you have, maybe he should just not be ridden anymore, and kept more as a 'pasture pet'? That's the last option of course, but it seems like if you have tried almost everything, I wouldn't want you to get seriously injured on this horse.
I would start looking for a new horse, but what to do with him is the question. Have to make sure if you sell him that the person is in his best interest.

I agree that it doesn't sound like he's doing anything to spite you, more-so something is bothering him. The problem is, we don't know 'what' that may be.

Have you had a trainer work with him?

Welcome to the forum as well. :)
 
#9 ·
To me he sounds like he's done, he's had enough. Especially if he's had a rough early career. Some horses are just done and they let you know.

I've seen 20yr olds who've had rough lives and are still sound and relatively pain free. We have an 18.1+h horse who amazes me everyday because they jumped the cr@p out of him and he's so large and still sound. The dressage work has actually made him sounder. He gets injections but that's to be expected.

When I had my quarab who was 6 it was a constant struggle to develop him, his quirks and temperament just made it difficult. Eventually I had a lesson and it took everything I had to just get him to walk-trot on contact and I was like this is ridiculous, I think I need a different horse. Switched over to jumping and he entirely changed. Before he'd throw a temper tantrum and kick the wall if I so much as touched him a feather's touch too much with a spur or when he was greener he'd try to rear up if my timing in the release was a little off in the leg yield. Just tricky, very tact oriented, I had a clinician whose an international GP rider who also brings on her own horses say oh I like him he looks really hard to ride, I love him he looks really tricky. After we switched to jumping he was excellent, he bailed me out of burying him at a fence (it was off the corner, a 1 stride to a 2 stride), so it was like turn and at the jump but he really took care of me, bailed me out and nailed the next distance. Kids could ride him, they'd make mistakes and he didnt care he'd take them to the jump. He was still sensitive and could be hot but not at all the aggressive belligerence just wanted to jump. Basically a sit there, do nothing but steer and sometimes half halt type ride over fences. He's now in a wonderful home where he trail rides and jumps and will be showing this year. I also did everything with diet, vets, chiropractors, massage, saddles, etc. I was also breaking baby horses at the time and it hit me when I could ride baby, unbroke horses and feel more progress and success than on my 6yr old schooling 2nd level horse. If you're that miserable, it isn't worth it and it's not necessarily anything you did or didn't do. It just is what it is.

I've also tried to rehab horses from psychologically abusive dressage homes and some horses you can rehabilitate and get them back, others they're so defensive and have such extreme reactions you can't. My filly's mother was showing 3rd-4th level but they put her in a double as a 4-5yr old and just held her together and bullied her. The mare had callouses where the spurs go the size and thickness of my palm. She ended up being a trail horse, she was too psychologically damaged, total meltdown when asked to do more than meet the contact. Another mare I know because of her talent was pushed up the levels too quickly and had a meltdown. She rides extremely sensitive, breathe wrong and she'll bolt and youll have no steering. So she's retired.

Sometimes they just need a career change and it's not that you did anything wrong or they're hurting, sometimes they mentally just don't want to do it and you cant make a horse do something it really doesn't want to do. You can negotiate but sometimes they've just had it and need a different career. You do your best but sometimes it's not enough. Where I live if a horse is retired you can find a decent home for the horse to be pasture buddy to their other horses. I don't know if it's that way where you live but I know a few people who took on free horses simply because they needed pasture mates or they enjoy having horses but don't necessarily ride.
 
#11 ·
There are many horses that love the dressage ring, there are many horses that come to hate the drilling and there are the horses that will tolerate it if they are given time off to decompress.

It sounds as though he has become ring or show sour. Whether or not it is worth you working him through it or not(or if you can, or want to), I don't know. I used to have a gelding that got that way and his compromise was that we could work dressage in a field and I could show him occasionally, but if I put too much pressure on him he would blow up! I campaigned him too hard as a young horse and then he was done.

Another horse that I had brought in for training would flip over as soon as you brought him into the dressage court. He would be fine to warm up. He became a wonderful trail horse... but was too dangerous to be a show horse anymore. End of story. We tried for 2 years to break his train of thought and give him positive experiences but he was too far gone.
 
#12 · (Edited)
i have a 26 year old who is 110% sound and she was ran hard as a barrel horse. our 32 year old is 100% sound with privacox. yes he needs meds but that horse still loves to run a pattern if you let him. i started practising dressage with him and the old man is with it. if the vet oked the horse, his pain is not THAT bad to warrant his behaviour. he is burnt out. maybe just needs to be a pasture pet for a while.
 
#13 ·
I disagree with many of the above replies for 2 reasons.

1: I experienced a very similar situation with a 23yo+ eventer who we got back into safe happy work

2: At our training facility we take in horses like yours on a consistent basis.

The bottom line is that your horse has learned to act out (as you mentioned) probably from a place of fear and discomfort/ pain. He has also learned that these fits prevent fear discomfort and pain because the pressure goes away when he acts out or threatens to act out.

Is he REALLY acting out from a place of fear and pain? YES. Can you change this YES.

It takes time, consistency and a a totally neutral/steady attitude to help him relearn his job. He has to *trust* you, but he also has to *respect* your authority and learn to try to give you an answer when you ask a question. It sounds like you've made good progress on the trust front, but maybe not the respect front.

Another point to bring up is that you made need to completely change your riding style. We also take in many "good" horses who won't perform with their owners because each is operating on a different wavelengths.

I know this may not be a popular opinion, but if you can get your hands on a professional who has a track record of helping horses who exhibit behaviors like yours does, professional training may really benefit the both of you. 20 is not too old to turn around. My gelding went from bucking off riders and bolting home, to winning at training level eventing after 23
 
#15 ·
I just wanted to say and add this to the discussion.

From my experience sometimes the issue is deeper than behavior or how a horse has been trained/approached. Sometimes a horse simply doesn't enjoy the job anymore or is tired, despite fair treatment and good riding. When I was younger I thought every horse could be "cured" if a rider/trainer was good enough/skilled and patient enough and what I found is in a lot of instances you can prevent a lot of problems and heart ache and you can rehabilitate a lot of horses but not every horse. Sometimes it's best to let them retire or do something else. It's a pretty hard lesson to learn but an important one. When is it something that can be turned around and when is it something to let go or change the situation?

As someone who has worked with a pretty large variety of horses and has trained a fair number of horses breaking and re training, etc. Note I'm saying this to explain where my perspective is coming from, it not to boast but offer perspective and why I think what I do. I do not expect unanimous agreement.

I've done a lot of rehab and I include retraining a horse mentally as rehab too. I've had more successes than failures and have successfully rehabbed horses over 20. One was a 27yr old. Most of the horses I've ridden who have had behavioral issues ended up not having a problem when I rode them or would stop altogether after some time. I have a half Arab I'm training right now who when 8 started with him if he didn't want to do something would slam on the brakes and rear straight up to where I bailed off of him. He was literally vertical. He had been bullied and rough ridden and he's a HIGHLY intelligent, sensitive and independent minded horse. You can't get on and demand anything, you have to suggest, ask and encourage. I used to have to almost run him into a canter transition because if I put a canter aid on he'd tense, slam on the brakes and rear. Now I can ask for canter and even ask him to go forward when he wants to break where as before he'd literally slam on the brakes and go up. He still plays and bucks some but he's a much more willing and obedient horse. I almost cried the other day because he's letting me ride him so much more than before and how willing and good his attitude has become. But sometimes no matter how well you've trained, how much experience you have or what you've done to try to help a horse they're just done and it's wiser to listen to them than to press forward with stubborn determination.

My young quarab for example. I did SO much to try to get him going, I pressed forward with stubborn determination. I spent thousands on diagnostics, treatments, I also am skilled at massage and massaged him twice a week and rode him bareback for months because we didn't have a saddle that fit him. I tried everything, his issues weren't necessarily behavioural. It's hard to explain, he was basically a professionals ride because he was so tricky. Literally touched him a hair too much with my spur and he leapt up and kicked the wall or I didn't have him in the outside rein entirely and he'd take it to spook or I'd have him on a lose rein and exhale too loudly and we were spun around taking off the other direction but the moment we tried jumping he was a different horse. That saddle he wore didn't fit but it was the only jump saddle we had available to us. He became a new horse, no spooking, minimal quirkiness, I could put kids on him and they could make all kinds of mistakes and he was forgiving. I got a lot of flack for "giving up on him" but I didn't, I just put him in a situation where he could be happy. And after jumping he was good to do dressage once or twice a week and he was great! But he was SO much happier as a jumper, I thought it was best to put him in a situation he was happy in. Now he's in a great home and is super happy. I don't regret selling him at all. Neither him or myself were happy in our situation.

My filly's dam was very roughly treated and mishandled. We tried for 3+yrs of riding and patience and let her have some time off having 2 babies and the tried to bring her back and she just didn't want to do it, so we retired her to trail and she loves her life and is in a great home!

Another mare I know who we couldn't rehab was just mentally fried. She had a high anxiety personality. She can be ridden but the rider has to be SO So careful and self aware or she loses her mind.

I think part of gaining experience is to figure out where you can change a horse and when it's time to let them move on. The answer is different for everyone but it's reality. A great trainer/training program can't change every horse. It can do a lot but it doesn't change everything.
 
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