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Gay Marriage Is going to Supreme Court!

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        03-28-2013, 08:41 AM
      #91
    Green Broke
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by Missy May    
    OMG, so if someone is married by the justice of the peace - no state recognizes their marriage?? Marriage laws do not require a religious ceremony, nor is any religious affiliation of any sort required to get married.
    No, no ever state recognizes the marriage. What were most concerned about is gaining benefits (not marriage) from the federal government in states where*it is legal. Here is the wiki link to DOMA, which prevents that: http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/DOMA

    I think the general consensus here is that this is a state issue and those who many not be pro gay marriage, in the traditional sense, are pro something equivalent to it WITH the government perks.
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        03-28-2013, 10:07 AM
      #92
    Trained
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by SlideStop    
    ...If we choose to have kids NO the father WILL NOT BE RESPONSIBLE. Ever hear of adoption or a sperm bank?
    And that is a big part of the problem with homosexual marriages in society. Society (not religion) created marriage. Folks were getting married before Abraham left Ur. The purpose was to create a unit optimized for raising kids.

    Two mommies or two daddies doesn't give the family role models, and never will. The butch lesbian will never be a man. The effeminate guy will never be a woman. Neither is providing the optimum role model for the kids. There may be stallions who want to stick their penises into the bums of geldings or other stallions, but that isn't exactly optimum stallion behavior.

    No, homosexual parents will not turn their kids into homosexuals, but neither are they providing the multi-sexual family role models possible in a heterosexual marriage. And while we're on the subject - as bad as the break-up rate and cheating rates are in heterosexual marriages, it is worse in homosexual couples.

    The role of marriage is not religious. It isn't about the Bible. Marriages existed and were encouraged long before Moses put pen to paper (or whatever he used). Marriages exist in places where no one has ever heard of Jesus. It isn't a religious construct, but a societal one, meant to optimize the raising of children and (somewhat later) providing support for women as well. And I've never met a guy who WANTED to be raised by two mommies, or two daddies. Maybe the people I've met and know well enough to talk about issues with are not representative...

    Will you be able to overcome the challenge? Maybe. Some do. But societies base their constructs on what works in the thousands and millions, not on what some individuals manage. At a minimum, with a federalist construct, it is possible to have states allow homosexual marriage and then see what happens before every state commits to it. As the Supreme Court noted in arguments, this is new ground. You don't toss out 5,000 years of history on a whim, or on 5-10 years of data.

    Given that few homosexuals marry, even where it is legal, the overall harm to society probably won't be huge. But there is also no reason for society to ENCOURAGE it. Raising kids is hard enough without adding additional challenges to the task.
    KayceeJo likes this.
         
        03-28-2013, 11:09 AM
      #93
    Weanling
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by bsms    
    Two mommies or two daddies doesn't give the family role models, and never will. The butch lesbian will never be a man. The effeminate guy will never be a woman. Neither is providing the optimum role model for the kids. There may be stallions who want to stick their penises into the bums of geldings or other stallions, but that isn't exactly optimum stallion behavior.
    Ugh!!! This is about the most uninformed paragraph in this thread. I can't even argue with this kind of thought process. Truly atrocious and so laughable. Just about the most closed minded/judgemental statement out there.

    By the way, neither my partner, nor I am butch. You would not know I was gay unless I told you. Second, neither one of us ever want to be a man.
    Allison Finch likes this.
         
        03-28-2013, 11:18 AM
      #94
    Green Broke
    The funny thing is children believe what YOU instil on them. If you tell them the middle east are a bunch of terrorist, they are going to grow up believing that. If you tell them black people shouldn't marry white people, they believe that. Now, if a child is asked of course he won't want that. Just like he probably won't want to moms or dads because they simply DON'T KNOW. It's different from what they see around them. I'm sure if you ask them if they want to grow up in a single parent house hold they would also say no, but I don't see that as any reason for preventing someone from having kids. Ask kids who have grown up in foster care, I bet they would be/have been happy to have ANY family love them.

    While were on the topic of single parent families there are PLENTY of parents raising opposite sex children with little to no contact with the parent of the same sex. Now what exactly is the true ADVANTAGE of being raised by a same sex family member? Can a woman not enjoy/teach sports? Can a man not braid hair? What EXACTLY are kids missing out on?

    What is a good role model made of? A GOOD person, regardless of gender! Someone who is loving, kind, hard working, honest, trustworthy, fights (reasonably!) for what they believe in. Someone with integrity! Why can a women instill these to her son, and father in his daughter. One of the biggest "needs" for have opposite sex parents it to reinforce stereotypical gender roles, and that really isn't necessary.

    If you think you need opposite sex parents to raise your kids with your values, by all means go right a head. But no one should be telling me (or anyone else) what is right for our family. There are several studies out, from reputable sources, that show there are not adverse effects from being raised by same sex parents. In fact there are a few positive aspects, including increase acceptance of anyone "different" then they are.
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        03-28-2013, 11:38 AM
      #95
    Showing
    Since same sex marriage is legal in Canada, is it recognised as legal if a ss couple from the US marries here then returns to the US? In Canada it had a lot to do with a ss spouse having the same legal rights as a hetero couple - pension plans, company benefits, etc. There was cosiderable controversy at first but that has all died down. I look at it this way, if other people would mind their own business none of this would be an issue.
         
        03-28-2013, 12:06 PM
      #96
    Green Broke
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by Saddlebag    
    Since same sex marriage is legal in Canada, is it recognised as legal if a ss couple from the US marries here then returns to the US? In Canada it had a lot to do with a ss spouse having the same legal rights as a hetero couple - pension plans, company benefits, etc. There was cosiderable controversy at first but that has all died down. I look at it this way, if other people would mind their own business none of this would be an issue.
    Are we talking about destination weddings? Lol. Or being married under Canadian law? I would assume no, there are only 9 states that will recognize same sex marriage and that is ONLY on the state level. I can't get married in NY, when my marriage or legal union, then go move out to Montana and have them honor the marriage. So I would doubt they would recognise a Canadian same sex marriage.

    I agree, people should "mind their own business". Obamacare effects everyone, by all mean rip it a new one. I know I miss that $50 a paycheck. My raise is pretty much null and void. Actually I think I'm making less then I was after my raise.

    Me, and Bailey Jo, wanting to file a joint tax return and not wanting to pay estate if our significant other passes away does not effect you.

    Alas, this is America and we are free to speak our minds regardless of what comes out of it.
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        03-28-2013, 12:36 PM
      #97
    Green Broke
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by SlideStop    
    When compared to our culture, yes, they are backwards. Every thing over there is run pretty much OPPOSITE of the way they are here. Like you said, their laws are biased on religion, I would hardly call them a free nation and they are is no such thing as democracy there. All facts. So how is that prejudice (a preconceived opinion not based on reason or experience) ? It's no more prejudice then you forming an opinion of about gay people biased on your experience with two men you labeled as metro-sexual.

    First off, she is my G I R L F R I E N D, not a friend. I'm in love with her, we sleep in the same bed, we have sex together, we are in a monogamous relationship, we support each other, I'd trust her with my life, and we want to have a family together! She is by no means only my "friend" and more then your husband/wife is just your FRIEND.

    If we choose to have kids NO the father WILL NOT BE RESPONSIBLE. Ever hear of adoption or a sperm bank? I'm pretty sure they just don't fork over the life long medical benefits card after signing the consent paper work. By whatever means I'm bringing children into the world I am responsible! Sure, single parents struggle all over the world, but where not single parents. We ARE a couple. Financial status of every couple is important, gay or straight. There will be struggling parents REGARDLESS of sexuality. So why should I not even have a CHANCE at providing medical/financial/other benefits to my kids? Because other people are struggling as parents too? Hate to be insensitive, or prejudice, or whatever (and I WAS one of those kids in a house like this) but of you make a poor choice (divorce, having kids when you can't afford it, etc) then you have to live with the consequences (no medical ins, or causing "struggle"). Gay people don't even have that RIGHT to obtain that stability, so WHY deny them biased on the premise that there are lots of struggling parents?
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    Okay, that was just a little bit more information about your arrangement than I think I needed.

    The only group of people of which I am aware that ever had a democracy were the Hopi Indian...and I don't believe there is any evidence that they did not practice marraige, or that they allowed gay marraige.

    I am not sure why you believe that I formed my opinion on gay marriage on the basis of anyone I have ever known or now know. And it makes any sort of civil exchange pointless when one presents fiction about another's personal opinion as "fact". Unlike Iran, the expression of our opinion is one of those "forward thinking" freedoms we enjoy that is not limited by who we do or do not know in reality or by accusation.

    Much of how the powers to be in Iran govern does not appear to be based on what the majority of its citizens would prefer, or what is best for them. Niether does the demand for gay marraige in the US. Like I said above, it is only benefits and what benefits gays that matter to gays demanding marriage, and you have made it quite clear that you are no exception. The law currently treats everyone the same, no man can marry another man regardless of their sexual preference, color, age, etc.,. Same for a woman. The potential fiscal consequences alone of allowing same sex marriages is of no importance to those in favor of it. Or, would you insist that gay marriage only apply to gays (unequal treatment)? This country did not always offer government or employer "benefits", yet, people always practiced marriage which was more difficult to enforce then (prior to government or employer benefits) than a civil union, or any other legally binding contract two people might enter into, is today.
         
        03-28-2013, 12:50 PM
      #98
    Weanling
    I don't get why we keep going back to Iran. We are not in Iran. Btw, saying the majority rules is slowly going out the window as more and more people support gay marriage. That's an old crutch that people continue to use to defend their positions.

    All I know is that when I make a committment to someone, whether it is a man or a woman, I want the same rights that are allowed anyone else. Whether you think I should be married in the eyes of God, or not, it makes no difference. I don't take up a heterosexuals place at the alter. When I do get married, it will not be in the eyes of your God anyway. It will be in the eyes of my own.

    Also, I make it important that I ask if you know any gay people. I mean, really know them and have befriended them. This is important because what it does is opens your mind to their stuggles and how they live their lives. You know their children, you know their jobs and how they save for retirement and build a house and life together. It is not so distant for you.

    Until you really know a situation, both sides, can you make a decision. Dare I say that even an Uncle or a nephew is too distant as many are not that close. Do you know their partners? Do you know their struggles? You can claim to know someone who is gay, but until you really know someone and their lives day by day, you can't form any kind of real educated opinion. Except for, I don't like it because the Bible says it isn't so.
         
        03-28-2013, 12:54 PM
      #99
    Trained
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by SlideStop    
    ...Can a woman not enjoy/teach sports? Can a man not braid hair? What EXACTLY are kids missing out on?

    What is a good role model made of? A GOOD person, regardless of gender! Someone who is loving, kind, hard working, honest, trustworthy, fights (reasonably!) for what they believe in. Someone with integrity! Why can a women instill these to her son, and father in his daughter...
    Well, if there is no difference between being a man and woman, you are right. Lots of folks, including me, believe there ARE differences. Natural differences. And it is easier to teach those differences with a man & woman working together in a stable family. That is the OPTIMUM. Not the only way to raise kids, but the optimum.

    That is why societies that have never heard of the Bible or that existed before Moses had marriage. Raising the next generation is tough. For thousands of years, societies have concluded it is best done by man & woman, although some have had man & women. Virtually none have had man & man, or woman & woman. Societies that practiced homosexuality openly still kept the family as man/woman.

    Without any reference to religion, marriage has been held in high regard because of what it can do for the next generation. It is not unreasonable to suggest approaching the idea of homosexual marriage with caution. Based on what I've seen in families around me over my life, I don't think easy divorce and applauding single parents has worked out well for society.

    Cohabiting is open to anyone of any sex and in any numbers. Society doesn't prevent anyone from cohabiting. "Marriage" has been held in higher regard because, when it works, it works very well.

    You can say there are studies that show homosexual parenting works fine. I can show other studies that say the opposite. Given the bias most researchers on BOTH sides bring, having some genuine data reported reasonably is probably a false hope. Even the proponents of mandatory homosexual marriage admitted to the court that the science was inconclusive. Given that homosexual activity was illegal 50 years ago, and that homosexual marriage wasn't thought about by the vast majority of folks 25 years ago, we probably cannot have any decent long term studies yet.

    Under a federal system, with each state able to make its own laws, it isn't unreasonable for the states that don't allow homosexual marriage to want to wait and see how it plays out in other states. And if someone feels strongly about it, as I do about taxes & gun rights, they can move to a state that reflects their views - as I have by retiring in Arizona instead of California or Colorado. If you offered me $50K/year to live in Illinois or New York, I'd turn you down. But if you are right about homosexual marriage, and it is a spectacular success as a way of raising kids, then more states will adopt it. Societies are like battleships - they don't turn on a dime, nor should they.

    Either way, it isn't something found in the US Constitution. No one writing it or ratifying it had any concept that it might someday be used to require homosexual marriage. It takes a gross twisting of the words - something courts do all the time, as with equine liability laws - to insert into the Constitution a 'right' to homosexual marriage. Let the states handle it.
    KayceeJo likes this.
         
        03-28-2013, 01:23 PM
      #100
    Foal
    This is rediculous. All of this same-sex this and that is unbelieveable. I do not in any way understand. And my biggest problem with it is not the people. Just think on what Rick Warren said, “Our culture has accepted two huge lies. The first is that if you disagree with someone’s lifestyle, you must fear or hate them. The second is that to love someone means you agree with everything they believe or do. Both are nonsense."

    Just becuase I am against same sex marriage is not becuase I don't like the people. It is simply because it is not Biblical. Marriage is a sacred pact between a man and a woman. Not two people of the same sex. It is things like this that make me extremely worried about our country. I support a marriage that is between a man and a woman, created by God, defined by God.

    The other thing. I know that this is a very important topic, but there seem to be more pressing matters at hand for the Supreme Court to spend there time worrying about.
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