Gay Marriage Is going to Supreme Court! - Page 19

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Gay Marriage Is going to Supreme Court!

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    04-02-2013, 09:46 PM
Green Broke
Originally Posted by Faceman    
You did NOT say anything at all about "before the church".
So, what you're saying is "historical" does not involve a time when there was no churches? Whatever...

Historically means "throughout history." LET ME SPELL IT OUT FOR YOU. Marriage started as a civil union before it was a religious institution (because marriages were being performed BEFORE there was a catholic church) and it CONTINUES to be a civil institution even today... Yes some view it ALSO as a religious union, but that view didn't exist for quite some time after marriages were first being done and that doesn't change the fact that historically, marriage was, and still is, a civil union.

I honestly don't understand what you don't understand about this... ? Historically, marriage has been a civil institution. It was created as a civil union and is still today a civil union. Just because some associate religious overtones with it does NOT mean it is not a civil union.
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    04-02-2013, 09:47 PM
Green Broke
Originally Posted by Faceman    

I cannot read your mind - I can what read what you write and respond to that...
You don't have to read my mind... you just have to know the definition of a word like "historically."
    04-02-2013, 09:59 PM
Green Broke
Originally Posted by Faceman    
Oh - now it is "offensive" to have an opinion?
If my "opinion" were that I expect all conservatives to be bible carrying, red neck, gun toting, illiterate jeso-facist freaks, you don't think that would be offensive? Boy, I sure do.

If my "opinion" were that I expected ALL catholics to be arrogant, judgmental, intolerant, and felt free to sin all week as long as they could confess every Sunday, you wouldn't find that offensive? I sure do.
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    04-02-2013, 11:10 PM
Super Moderator
Originally Posted by Faceman    
You know what they say about assumptions.

I have very few "preconceived notions" -

The world is what it is - I didn't make it that way, and I have done my part to try to right what wrongs I can within my little corner of it.
Well, in my opinion it is people who seem so able to make huge judgements based on narrow view of the evidence before them that seem to make much of the tension in this country. Yes, I am judgemental too. However, I am still open to being inclusive rather than exclusive. That is a wholly different viewpoint of the world. I love the differences in people and cultures, which is why I go to places so far off the beaten path for long periods in my travels. Other people just seem to want people to conform to their view of what is correct.

But it is foolish to, in the effort to be politically correct, to close one's eyes to the real world. Problems are NEVER solved by ignoring them - they are solved by recognizing them, admitting they are problems, confronting them, and trying to resolve them...
I guess it is just safe to say people will draw vastly different conclusions even if they are looking at the same information. I am almost the same age as you, have traveled likely more extensively in more "off the beaten path" locales, have had job experiences that have gone the gamit from mountain rescue paramedic to corporate world, and now a patrol supervisor and yet I see things so totally differently.

My view is neither more correct OR less correct than yours! I just believe in live and let live. I would much rather see things from my eyes where people are not so hastily judged by their beliefs, not even you, than to see things from such a negative perspective.
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    04-03-2013, 10:34 AM
Green Broke
Originally Posted by Faceman    
But it is foolish to, in the effort to be politically correct, to close one's eyes to the real world. Problems are NEVER solved by ignoring them - they are solved by recognizing them, admitting they are problems, confronting them, and trying to resolve them...
Being gay is not a "problem." Being gay is not something that has to be "resolved." But I will agree that their lack of a federal right to be married IS a problem that can't be ignored, needs to be recognized, needs to be confronted, and needs to be resolved ... see, we can agree on some things.
    04-03-2013, 11:07 AM
Green Broke
Face, you should check out the book "Public Vows: A History of Marriage and the Nation." It focuses on marriage exclusively in America. Even this book (which does not include any other cultures or any other nations, and only focuses on the nature of marriage since America was formed and excludes all other historical marriage information) concludes that marriage in America was and is definitely treated as a private, civil contract between two people versus a religious institution. This is not saying some people didn't/don't treat it as the latter; it's simply saying "from the beginning," marriage in America was always treated as a contract first. One can find similar information regarding marriage, historically, being a civil contract in pretty much any document/article written about the history or marriage. So in short, this book is saying historically, in American, marriage has been a civil union. The same is true of marriage around the world.

Many people against gay marriage are arguing that marriage is essentially and necessarily a religious rite and view marriage in almost exclusively religious terms. For them, legalizing gay marriage is basically sacrilege... and is often seen as government butting into a religious matter. And while it is true that religion has played a role in sanctifying marriages in the past (but not throughout all of history as I have pointed out), this view is understandable... but this view is incorrect. Marriage, by definition, is neither essentially or necessarily a religious rite.

The fact is marriage, to be considered legal, must be recognized by the government, not the church. Marriage does not need a religious component to be considered valid.
    04-03-2013, 11:15 AM
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    04-03-2013, 02:29 PM
Green Broke
Originally Posted by natisha    
I sure agree with that! If I were in a gay relationship I'd be glad there was no pressure to marry.
Sure, marriage can be great, until it isn't.
Now, if gay people or any unmarried couple wants to split up, they just do. They agree what each will take etc., sometimes they can even remain friends. Enter the divorce lawyers & pretty soon they are fighting over the value of barn cats.

If Government gives you permission to marry then you have to ask their permission to unmarry (is that a word?)

There are contracts to cover single couples in every aspect of life or you can make your own. No big tax advantage to being married that I see. Even heath insurance for married people is considered a family/group policy & can be more costly than 2 single plans. Also you get to be responsible for half of all debt.
His/her bad name can become yours.

Divorce lawyers are the only ones that will benefit in the long run. Meetings, court dates, back & forth bantering all costs money & breeds resentment.

I personally don't think any marriage is smart though I would consider marrying some rich guy who just entered hospice care if I didn't already have a contract making me his heir.

I don't oppose gay marriage any more than I oppose all marriage.

why on earth anyone in their right mind with any assets, or hope of acquiring some in the future would consider a legal marriage is beyond me.

    04-03-2013, 03:04 PM
Green Broke
Originally Posted by Joe4d    
why on earth anyone in their right mind with any assets, or hope of acquiring some in the future would consider a legal marriage is beyond me.

It's funny, people choose to do it regardless. My parents fought over a MICROWAVE (our primary source of food as kids) when they were getting divorced. You should appreciate you can wake up one morning and say "wow, marriage is over rated, I won't get married". Even of you (or whoever else) think its overrated, who are you (again, not you personally) to make that decision for another person?
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    04-03-2013, 05:19 PM
Green Broke
My X's lawyer tried to get my divorce contested over interest on a couple hundred bucks I refused to pay till divorce was signed. The judge actually laughed when I fipped a quarter across the table and said, "that should cover it till I get out to the car and get my checkbook."
Go to church, have your wedding, have your party, Why on earth get the government involved ?

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