Gun Control - Page 11 - The Horse Forum
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post #101 of 131 Old 01-27-2011, 03:57 PM
Green Broke
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Fair enough, I am willing to accept that the comparison I drew is not necessarily correct, but it did make for interesting discussion right?!

Just to clarify to you all, I DID say this:

Originally Posted by sarahver View Post
I am becoming more and more familiar with the American psyche and don't worry, I would NEVER suggest banning guns here - the culture is different, the history is different, the people are different and I accept that.

I just thought that Switzerland was an interesting comparison and relevant to the topic at hand.

You can have your guns, us Aussies can have our beer and everyone will be merry
Having grown up in a culture without gun violence I am not used to gun related crime. So while it may seem to you that LA is the ‘bad spot’ in relation to America, even the far less graphic crimes committed in Austin can be shocking to me.

And thank you for the civil discussion even though our opinions may not align!

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post #102 of 131 Old 01-27-2011, 08:47 PM
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Originally Posted by Administrator View Post
Fingerprints can unlock doors, wake computers up from hibernation mode, tell the turnstiles at Disneyworld that you are indeed the owner of your "Magic Your Way" pass, etc.

What about applying that technology to gun triggers so that the only person(s) able to fire a particular weapon are those it's been licensed to? That would allow sane, law abiding citizens to own guns while at the same time making those guns useless to all others.

Even if such technology could be circumvented, if it could be done at all then I'm sure it could be done in such a way so as to make circumventing it far beyond that average person's grasp.

Guns with this technology wouldn't make all of the existing "legacy" guns go away, of course. If law abiding citizens traded their existing guns for guns with this technology (or somehow had them retrofitted with it), though, then as law enforcement officers confiscated guns from criminals there would be fewer and fewer "legacy" guns available for criminals to use, thereby making it harder and harder for them to obtain one until it's nearly impossible.

To satisfy those paranoid of such technology in case the government should ever become so unjust or oppressive that it needs to be overthrown, it should be implemented in such a way so as to prevent any type of remote deactivation.

I realize this sounds like science fiction, but considering what people are already doing with fingerprints and other types of biometrics, it seems like it should be feasible.
I think that would work better if the "safety" was the fingerprinting system. If the system was placed on the handle how you hold it to shoot, you could get out as many rounds you needed until your finger left the pad. Then the safety in the gun would be electronically put back on.

I'm sure whoever could figure out that would be a billionare.
Along with the inventer of the "cool" hearing aid. Hahahaha. Sorry
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post #103 of 131 Old 01-28-2011, 03:23 AM
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Originally Posted by A knack for horses View Post
I think that would work better if the "safety" was the fingerprinting system. If the system was placed on the handle how you hold it to shoot, you could get out as many rounds you needed until your finger left the pad. Then the safety in the gun would be electronically put back on.

I'm sure whoever could figure out that would be a billionare.
Along with the inventer of the "cool" hearing aid. Hahahaha. Sorry
The only problem with the safety having the fingerprinting system is not all weapons have external safeties. Then what?? lol Just throwing it out there.

I own several guns...and carry most days (unless with boyfriend who ALWAYS carry). Gun control only stops the law abiding citizens...criminals dont abide by the law..

And actually I was pleasantly surprised reading the thread..for some reason I expected a different theme. Good to hear I'm not alone.
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post #104 of 131 Old 01-28-2011, 05:23 AM
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Please excuse me if this has already been addressed - I have not read all 11 pages of this.

As a NZer I do not understand the American obsession with fire arms??. What exactly is it that you are protecting yourself against?? and how does a firearm do this??

Im not trying to be provocative but I seriously don't understand it??

here there is very little gun culture - It is not the norm to have one, let alone several, especially in the family home. Heck, even our police don't carry them unless in extreme circumstances.

Firearms make me intensely uncomfortable - even the toy ones, and I would never allow one in my home, not even the plastic childrens playones - I find it physically repulsive to see children playing with toy replica guns, I don't understand why anyone would let their child engage in that kind of play?

Here we do not have any of the wild animals that I can understand people living in areas habited by the likes of bears, big cats and coyotes might need a gun for (no bears/big cats or coyotes or anything like that) - we do not have any snakes, and no real poisonous spiders (we have a whitetail which while it will give you a sore bite, is not deadly) . We do not have scorpions - infact, the only real wild animal that is of concern is a wild pig - which , are not a problem unless you go after them - and even they only live in certain areas. We do not have crocodiles, or anything of the sort really.

Im not condemning anyone - I just don't understand it?? - is gun control somthing that is taught in American schools?? how is it incorporated into the community? is it something that is promoted as a luxury item? or is it more of an expectation - or considered a 'right'? - Is owning a gun like owning a car - something that is studied for so that rules and regulations are learnt and the permit to use one is earn t and understood?

please don't flame me as I am not trying to hurt anyones feelings - nor am I condemning the choice to carry a gun - I just don't understand it that is all. There is clearly a big culture gap between New Zealand and America.
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post #105 of 131 Old 01-28-2011, 11:51 AM
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1 - It is a right granted by the US Constitution, which was written by men who overthrew the government with the help of armed civilians.

2 - A gun primarily protects me against bad people. If my car breaks down in a bad part of town, there are people who will see me and think 'victim'. I refuse to be a victim.

New Zealand has a more homogeneous population than the US. I don't think New Zealand ever faced someone like Geronimo, and I don't think you have a big problem with people crossing the border illegally and smuggling drugs. There are places in the state where I live that the federal government put up signs warning people not to stop because of the danger.

And yes, we still have wild animals. I'll go hiking tomorrow, and was asked to bring a gun since the area has cougars, and some of them can get bold.
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post #106 of 131 Old 01-28-2011, 12:36 PM
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Originally Posted by sarahver View Post
I hope you don’t mind if I add in my $0.02?

Having grown up in a country where gun restrictions are very tight, the notion of the average person walking around with a concealed weapon is very foreign to me. Hearing about shootings in the media may seem somewhat normal to those accustomed to it but let me assure you, it is disturbing and frightening to someone who is not.

Now, interestingly enough, I don’t think gun restrictions are the answer here in America. There are other countries in the world with high gun ownership rates but far less violent crime. Also, there are other countries in the world with low gun ownership rates but far greater violent crime. The correlation is not necessarily between guns and violence, it is the people wielding the weapons that make the difference.

Take Switzerland for example – one of the highest gun ownership rates in the world (more than half of which are automatic rifles) yet violent crime rates there are amongst the lowest in the world. What is the difference? Well there are several:

- High median income.
-Excellent social systems including healthcare and education.
-Low unemployment rate.
-Military training is mandatory for a few days a year, in which time proper gun training is provided.

In summary, the people are well looked after, informed and armed. No problem.

Here in America, the rich are getting richer and the poor are getting poorer. Not to mention the “working poor” – those hard working tax paying people who slog it out every day, every week, every year just to keep their head above water. Bush’s tax incentives did more for big business and high income earners than they did for the lower income earners who needed it the most. The economy is weak, unemployment is high and the social systems are failing. Guess what happens? People are unhappy, frustrated and armed and the crime rate increases.

The only way to alleviate the rate of violent crime is to look at the socioeconomic and cultural factors that are the real determinants of crime and violence in the first place.

It is not the thought of the average well balanced happy individual carrying a gun around me that I find so frightening, it is the thought that the maybe person next to me has a chip on their shoulder and a pistol in their pocket.
Interesting theory.

Even it's a bit offtopic, I think I have to comment the correlation thing between poverty and criminality:

I believe poverty is one of the reasons that cause people to make bad choices or then bad choices can make you turn to be poor and troubles stemming from that can be inheritable. Even sure it isn't any kind of self-evidence that if you're poor, you'd also turn bad like some people in that thread have brilliantly pointed out.

That's how I see the way goes with some of those poor, passive people: You may born into a family which has many troubles such like poverty, mental health problems, unstable human relationships, problems with life control, violence etc. in it. And then many times problematic families like that can't reach proper living standard but end up to be drifted into some questionable habitat with bunch of similar people. Then, in their miserable state in which they don't mind anymore, they end up to vent their dysphoria with committing to criminality, forming gangs and other bad things like that. Okay, and now you born into that insecure family and surroundings like that. You may end up to grow up to be very insecure person, you've might had many disappointments in your life already and the passive attitude toward you doesn't prefer to you to be enterprising. The closest role models you have have morals like that. You grow up, hit your puberty and like we know, youngsters don't always think what's the best option for the future but do something that they feel great just then. Perhaps the "coolest" role model to young you is that criminal gang or something else not so good around your corners and soon you notice you've gotten involved in it up to your neck and can't get rid of it. May you don't go that radical but have still adopted values around you. Then you perhaps end up to be that insecure parent with lots of troubles once and also your child will grow up in that same atmosphere and the vicious cycle is ready.

Like I said, living in poverty isn't the same thing that committing criminality, not at all. Like stated in that topic, you can grow up as any other good person even your material start wouldn't have been that good. What I wanted to say is that in many cases poverty is still a part of the problem and what's more important, human is weak. Sure there are some people who can yank theirselves apart and have a good life in the conditions I described, but I think in many cases it isn't that easy and there have to be reasons behind the bad moral.

Just my humble opinion and very offtopic . Carry on.

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Että koskaan en ole yksin, varjo seuraa onneain.
Vaikka myrsky hetkeksi tyyntyykin, varjo seuraa onneain.
Ja pian taas uusin hönkäyksin, varjo seuraa onneain.
Hei tuu mun luo, pieneksi hetkeksi. Puhutaan, varjoni, valkoiseksi enkeliksi."

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Last edited by TaMMa89; 01-28-2011 at 01:55 PM.
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post #107 of 131 Old 01-28-2011, 01:15 PM Thread Starter
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Scoope, I can kind of understand how you find it so difficult. Guns in the home has been common in the US since we became a country. Because guns are so common here, almost everyone has access to one, even criminals, and they won't hesitate to use them. With our fairly high crime rate here in America, it seems more uncommon for someone to not be a victim at some point in their life.

When I was living in Amarillo (a city of approx 175,000 people), 2 guys tried to break into my house while I was home at 11:00 in the morning. Would they still have run off if I hadn't met them at the door with my shotgun? I don't know but it's not something that I was willing to risk.

Most children who are exposed to guns in the home are taught proper gun use and safety by a parent or loved one at an earlier age. My Dad taught me how to use a gun and what to do when I was about 7 or 8. I started with a smaller caliber gun and worked my way up to the bigger guns as I got older.

It is a person's right to have a gun according to our Constitution but that does not require a person to have one. Each individual person is allowed to make that decision for themselves. If they decide that they want one, then they are easy to get and classes to learn about them are easy to find. The only people who cannot legally own a gun are minors (teenagers and children) and people who have been convicted of any crime more serious than a traffic offense.

I understand where you are coming from, Scoope, though it is from the other side of the coin. It is hard for me to imagine a culture where guns are rare.

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post #108 of 131 Old 01-28-2011, 02:02 PM
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So far, most of the posters on this thread are clearly very protective of their right to bear arms, feel a strong attachment to the weapons and feel they have an ever present need to carry one at all times.
I will not say that that is right or wrong. I don't live where they do. I lead my life day in and day out and never carry a firearm. I don't know one person who has ever used one to prevent a crime, nor even one person who has had a crime perpetrated on them with the criminal holding a gun. Guess I am lucky.

I say this for some of the Non American posters who are puzzled by the apparent love affair that Americans have expressed on this forum for guns.
Many people in America hold quite different views but are not a large portion of the segment of population that tends to represented on the forum.

Now, I will say that we DO have guns in our house; locked away. I think we have three of them; all my husband's. I have fired one of them once, at a firing range. It was a total blast and when I was a kid, we used to go target shooting with my dad out in the woods. I don't believe total gun bans are good or enforceable. I do think that there can be reasonable limits on what is sold on the open market .
Anyway, what I was thinking about after reading some of the foreign posters questions as to why we are so closely linked with our guns was that looking at our history, of being a "frontier breaking" nation you can see the way that the gun played a big role in our development. AND, our reverence for the rugged individual and individual rights OVER group stability is a both our American hallmark and greatest asset, and a challenge to maintain in a world where privacy is eroding by the minute.
In actuality, considering how many guns are in the hands of the American public, it is amazing how LITTLE gun violence happens. Look at some African nations where guns are toted by reckless "soldiers". The number of guns per capita is probably far less, but the number of times firing the weapon, per capita, probably far more.
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post #109 of 131 Old 01-28-2011, 02:07 PM
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Well, just to clarify a few things that I said – I in no way meant that the US is a poor nation, in fact it is a very wealthy nation and sorry if my words were interpreted that way as it sounds very offensive! My comments were more directed at inequality of said wealth. More than one third of the country’s wealth is held by less than 1% of the population.

Not sure if any of you are familiar with the Gini index/coefficient? It is a Financial measure of income inequality. In the US, it reached an all time historical high (suggesting that there is great income inequality) in 2006. The reason I mentioned the Bush tax cuts is that they were introduced three years earlier, by which time had taken full effect. Now, whilst these tax cuts lowered the marginal tax rates for ALL income earners, they also negated the AMT (Alternative Minimum Tax) which was originally introduced to DETER wealthy tax payers from utilizing too many tax incentives. The AMT rates were never rectified to reflect the new tax rates that Bush introduced and as a consequence, many high income earners were able to claim tax incentives that were previously prohibited on account of their exorbitant income. In my opinion this contributed to the increased level of income inequality. Feel free to dispute, I am not a Financial Analyst.

Switzerland (my original comparison) on the other hand historically has a very low Gini coefficient, suggesting that the wealth is spread more evenly throughout the country.

As for my conclusions regarding a correlation between income inequality and crime, well that is purely speculative and just something I wanted to throw into the debate. Whether I am right or wrong is of no concern to me, I just wondered why Switzerland has so many guns and such a low rate of gun crime.

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post #110 of 131 Old 01-28-2011, 02:34 PM
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thankyou smrobs and all for explaining it alittle more - here in NZ we often get reports of shootings and people going postal in educational institutions etc (which I know is not solely an American occurance , it is just that America is where we usually get the reports from) and gang violence - much of which I am sure is greatly sensationalized by the media - a little like a round of Chinese whispers at times. We rarely hear good reports and America is very much presented as a 'gun toting' place to avoid - atleast in recent years. I know , as an individual that when I am travelling I try to avoid passing through America at all costs - recently for example we opted for a 39 hour trip to avoid passing through LAX as we are treated like cattle there and it is utter hell being a foreigner in transit in an American airport due to the stringent security methods (which I understand totally why they are in-place, it is just as a forigner travelling it is horrible!)

It is good to hear - from the horses mouth per say - that America is not solely how it is represented to us, I for one would love to visit one day - and we fully intend , when our child is alittle old enough to make the 'pilgrammage' to Disney world that is so covited by all small children.

Like I said in my initial post, I understand completely re- the wild animals , but , here in NZ - we do not have any of these , being a glorified island (or two if you want to get technical) we are proudly minus any of these threats - the only big cats I have ever seen are the lions at the zoo! and those are through a large sheed of re-enforced glass, a moat and a high electric fence!. Those of you hiking and camping in the wilds must have some serious gonads, I would have the serious quakes and would be locking myself in my car!! - although I dont suppose that is much protection against a Bear is it!!.

A slightly random question though - I have always wondered - are there really Moose just wandering around town?? and are they bigger than a horse?? or more deer like?? and will they come and bite you?? or will they run away like a deer?? I just have visions of one trying to get into a house or a car (have never actually seen a Moose mind you - but have always wandered what they are like!)
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