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Let's talk about racism.

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        07-09-2012, 01:15 PM
      #21
    Super Moderator
    You know,the sad thing about hiring quotas is that they damage the psyche of both sides of the equation.

    For the member of the minority hired, it does help to equalize past wrongs in the workplace, but it has had an unintended consequence. I work with a black supervisor who I feel is a very gifted leader. But if you ask him, he will quickly tell you he ONLY got his promotion to fill a quota "need". I find this very disturbing as it makes me feel that, while it may have a small element of truth, he has discounted his talent altogether. He does not recognize his true value to this workplace. He seems to have a form of "quota guilt" that affects how he sees himself. This can only be very damaging to a person's self esteem, if they really believe they have little other value to a workplace than to prove diversity.

    And, hiring quotas, in many ways, does more damage to a feeling of equality than help, in the long run.

    While I agree with the need for quotas, in many ways, there has got to be a time when the need for them diminishes. That people are allowed to rise to whatever levels their personal talents and dedication brings them.
         
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        07-09-2012, 01:29 PM
      #22
    Trained
    The problem is db, racism is not something that is limited to "white people". It is racism and oppression to the extremes to only recognize its existance in one race, though.

    I am often mistaken for being part of a certian race to which I have zero "connection". I find it offensive when people ask me if I am part that race...only b/c it is poor manners, imo - no other reason. I don't assume that if someone doesn't care for me it must be b/c they have mistook me for a member of that race and they are a racist. However, growing up one of my very close friends was black, as were acquaintances - in a nearly all white area. I noticed that if I were not around them and did not care for a black person b/c I did not like them as an individual not their color, bam!!! Some people w no black friends or acquantances immediately implied that the only reason I didn't care for them was b/c of their race. HELLO? That was way back when, and not much has changed. It does nothing to further the "anti-prejudice" cause...b/c it removes the individual.

    For every person that gets a job, accepted, etc., on the basis they are a given color, ethnicity, etc., - someone didn't b/c they weren't "that color". It isn't "healing wounds" - it is enforced descrimination, there are no other words for it. It is divisive and it is oppressive. Either oppression is good or it is not.

    I don't get the Coon sign thing - you failed to make it clear if it were meant as a racial slur. There are towns, counties, businesses, etc., that have that name, my first thought is not a "racial slur" when I hear it...in fact, it doesn't even cross my mind.
         
        07-09-2012, 01:35 PM
      #23
    Trained
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by Allison Finch    
    You know,the sad thing about hiring quotas is that they damage the psyche of both sides of the equation.

    For the member of the minority hired, it does help to equalize past wrongs in the workplace, but it has had an unintended consequence. I work with a black supervisor who I feel is a very gifted leader. But if you ask him, he will quickly tell you he ONLY got his promotion to fill a quota "need". I find this very disturbing as it makes me feel that, while it may have a small element of truth, he has discounted his talent altogether. He does not recognize his true value to this workplace. He seems to have a form of "quota guilt" that affects how he sees himself. This can only be very damaging to a person's self esteem, if they really believe they have little other value to a workplace than to prove diversity.

    And, hiring quotas, in many ways, does more damage to a feeling of equality than help, in the long run.

    While I agree with the need for quotas, in many ways, there has got to be a time when the need for them diminishes. That people are allowed to rise to whatever levels their personal talents and dedication brings them.

    , I agree w Alison? It just gets stranger and stranger.
    Allison Finch likes this.
         
        07-09-2012, 02:43 PM
      #24
    Trained
    Missy May that sign was meant to keep people in their place.
    The word Coon is a derogatory slur about African Americans used here in the south. To have that sign placed there and to still hear that section of town called that is pretty telling. The small town here in texas are pretty well segregated to this day.
    I did not understand it until I was a teenager.
    Racism is both institutional and personal, both are harmful to the morale of everyone.
    Unfortantely quotas are still necessary to ensure equal hiring and promotions. Shalom
    uflrh9y likes this.
         
        07-09-2012, 03:28 PM
      #25
    Trained
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by dbarabians    
    Missy May that sign was meant to keep people in their place.
    The word Coon is a derogatory slur about African Americans used here in the south. To have that sign placed there and to still hear that section of town called that is pretty telling. The small town here in texas are pretty well segregated to this day.
    I did not understand it until I was a teenager.
    Racism is both institutional and personal, both are harmful to the morale of everyone.
    Unfortantely quotas are still necessary to ensure equal hiring and promotions. Shalom
    I don't agree that quotas are necessary - I firmly believe in free markets. No one in a free market cares what color you are if you have the qualifications they need. No one that is non subsidized is going to not hire talent because of a color issue. It puts individualism back in the game, true "ownership" of your accomplishments.

    If you look real hard, db..you will find low income white people living side by side - do you call it segregatioin?
         
        07-09-2012, 03:38 PM
      #26
    Weanling
    The thing is, do you know who was helped the most by quotas and Affirmative Action?

    Women.

    I agree that it would be wonderful to get to a place where AA and quotas are not necessary. I think we are moving in the right direction, but we are not there yet. And my point is that I would love to live in a world that when someone says American, they think of all kinds of people equally. But that is not the case. And to me hyphenating one's culture with American is not in any way shape or form the cause or what perpetuates racism. If anything it is a reaction to not being thought of as American in the past.

    The thing that makes it difficult is younger generation grow up, they don't have experiences and often not taught about things like Jim Crow and Segregation and Internment Camps, etc. And it can seem like everything is fine and why do we have to keep talking about racism and sexism and have quotas and hyphenate names and such. But all this has come from decades of intolerance and hate. It takes more then a generation to wipe the effects of institutionalized discrimination away.

    Also, more people have gotten jobs and have been admitted to colleges based on things like Legacy Preference and nepotism then quotas and AA. Can we get to a point where it is not necessary? Absolutely. But we are not there yet and they are not the problem nor the answer to 100's of years of racism in this country.
    dbarabians likes this.
         
        07-09-2012, 03:41 PM
      #27
    Weanling
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by Missy May    
    I don't agree that quotas are necessary - I firmly believe in free markets. No one in a free market cares what color you are if you have the qualifications they need. No one that is non subsidized is going to not hire talent because of a color issue. It puts individualism back in the game, true "ownership" of your accomplishments.

    If you look real hard, db..you will find low income white people living side by side - do you call it segregatioin?
    But we don't live in a free market system. We live in a world where 100's of years of discrimination has given advantage to one group. To just say "Ok, let's forget about that" is not the answer. It is something that has to be worked towards.
    AlexS, dbarabians and FaydesMom like this.
         
        07-09-2012, 04:03 PM
      #28
    Trained
    Missy May until recently the projects in these smaller Texas towns were indeed segregated and for the most part still are. Im talking about the last 5 years or so that the State agency got sued and was forced to change policies.
    The rest of the towns are also segregated Blacks living in one specific area whites the rest. I see it everday.
    Being white in this country has its advantages. In terms of education politics, and opprotunity there is a large disparity between the races.
    Sad but true. Shalom
    uflrh9y likes this.
         
        07-09-2012, 04:52 PM
      #29
    Trained
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by uflrh9y    
    But we don't live in a free market system. We live in a world where 100's of years of discrimination has given advantage to one group. To just say "Ok, let's forget about that" is not the answer. It is something that has to be worked towards.
    No, unfortunately we don't live in a free market system b/c the government imposes regulations to inhibit it. That does not mean a free market does not work, and what I said is not true. In fact, the NFL is an example of the "free market" at work. Do you see any women on those teams? I personally don't wonder why not, do you? Do you see only one color on those teams? Ditto. They want to ---gasp!!!----"win". Fortunately for those teams pocketbooks, someone voluntarily watches football (not I). Here is another example...turn on your radio - do your hear anyone identifying the "color" of the artist Does anyone care?? Are your music choices affected by "quotas"?

    I am female. 100 years ago women's choices were limited and they could not vote. That does not mean MY choiced are limited in the present. Its a space time continuum thing.

    By ALL means, please DO get rid of ANY "quotas" for women, it is 2012.

    Quote:
    Originally Posted by dbarabians    
    Missy May until recently the projects in these smaller Texas towns were indeed segregated and for the most part still are. Im talking about the last 5 years or so that the State agency got sued and was forced to change policies.
    The rest of the towns are also segregated Blacks living in one specific area whites the rest. I see it everday.
    Being white in this country has its advantages. In terms of education politics, and opprotunity there is a large disparity between the races.
    Sad but true. Shalom
    Your example is noted. I have spent a lot of time in the south, and I have never witnessed this - so it isn't some current wide spread practice. And, they can move, don't tell me there is some "hidden law" that prevents their freedom of movement. I live in area where being non-hispanic (an ethnicity, not a race), puts you at an extreme disadvantage w respect to employment, and the lions share of jobs are government. If its a private business...who cares, the free markets almost always works. Non hispanic whites, blacks, and asians are the minority. This openly practiced discrimination will never be addressed - at least not for the non-hispanic white population b/c.....why??? They are the race/ethnicity that is not afforded such luxuries as "equal opportunity". It is either equal, or it is not.
         
        07-09-2012, 07:15 PM
      #30
    Weanling
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by dbarabians    
    Hopefully there will be a day when race creed religion and sexual orientation do not matter.

    Really???? Since when is sexual orientation a race? Or something that is out of someones control? You've proven to be intellectually dishonest in the past and I suppose I know your answer but last time I checked, I get to decide whether or not I have a relationship with a female or not. Black people are black and there is nothing short of some creepy surgery (Michael Jackson)that is going to change that. Last time I checked, employers can still decide whether or not to hire someone based on the decisions an individual has made or is making. On the flip side, I don't suppose I would know if someone was gay or not unless they were having an inappropriate conversation at work. Which in itself could be cause for termination.........
         

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