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Proposed nasty changes to UK immigration laws

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        07-10-2012, 08:36 PM
      #21
    Started
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by Lakotababii    
    It seriously baffles me that anyone would consider Obama right winged.

    I don't agree that there are too many right wing extremists. The word "extremist" is overused. Just because someone has strong beliefs doesn't mean that they are extremists.

    Sure, there are strong beliefs, but they are on BOTH sides. I could label just about anyone an extremist if I felt like it. But extremist is not a word that should be used just because you feel like their cause is not worth pursuing. Liberals and conservatives both fight hard for what they believe in, and that is commendable.
    Oh I wouldn't call him a rightwinger exactly. But his policies really aren't very left (or not what we'd consider left here), probably because he wouldn't be able to get anything too radical through Congress anyway, and he's still pretty strong on the ol' free market so he's definitely not a socialist lol. Our "left" party is the Labor party - but it has "left", "centre" and "right" elements, it just has links to the unions so is left of the Liberal Party and the National (country) Party. And a fair number of Liberal Party policies are quite left in approach (if you consider left to be increased state control - the NT Intervention being one example of this). In general, I'd describe Labor in Australia as centre/centre-right, and Liberals as rightwing.

    But politics in Australia is a joke - they grab hold of one or two little issues that the rightwing current affairs programs have made a hullabaloo about, and compete about which one has the most "hardline" approach (never mind if it works, gotta get tough on criminals/immigrants/unemployed people/Indigenous people/drug addicts/people who park in no standing zones). As long as a three-word slogan can be attached to a policy, it's good to go *sigh*
         
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        07-10-2012, 08:50 PM
      #22
    Yearling
    Yes, what EvilHorseofDoom (great handle, by the way) said. Obama is not wildly right-wing, but he's not wildly left, either. As I said earlier, he's firmly centrist and to be honest, slightly right of centre. If he were in Britain, he would probably be a moderate Tory. For instance, as Evilhorse stated, he still very much embraces and supports the free market as the solution to most of the world's problems. The main difference on this issue between him (or the Democratic party, really) and US conservatives is that he wants to regulate it a weensie bit, whereas they believe in the sanctity of absolute laissez-faire capitalism. Nevermind that laissez faire has been tried before, at end of the nineteenth century and beginning of the twentieth century, and it didn't work then, either.

    You'll not convince me that politics in the US have not gotten extreme. And extremely right. There is now this marriage between economic libertarians and evangelicals which dominates political discourse. The truly progressive left wing is more or less silenced and the stuff the right screams about as being left wing, socialist, and horrible isn't really left at all.
    EvilHorseOfDoom likes this.
         
        07-10-2012, 09:12 PM
      #23
    Green Broke
    So, I guess you've read his book "Dreams of My Father"?

    In his own words, he had a communist mentor and attended communist rallies.

    What about the 20 year relationship with the Rev. Jeremiah Wright and Black Liberation Theology?

    If it walks like a duck, and talks like a duck........
    goneriding likes this.
         
        07-10-2012, 09:26 PM
      #24
    Trained
    And there are times that I'm glad that I didn't get into America, yur political system isn't all that great folks, and I can't believe that you can't see the issues.

    We'll never know what Obama was capable of because of the other side chanting 'NO WE CAN'T' to everything that has has tried to do.

    Progress is so difficult
         
        07-10-2012, 09:33 PM
      #25
    Foal
    I was pretty dam annoyed and this WHY I feel trapped in the US. I want to return to the UK but I can't... if these changes go though.

    Thing is these MP are total &P^@#$%. Immigration was becoming an issue but NON EU was not been an issue. The issue with the Immigration was the open boarder with the other EU country like the Eastern EU family come right over. This too me like open the boarder to mexico and say hey come over.

    So with crap hitting the fan in Eastern part of the EU like greece going to make it worse. To insult the public and people in UK they KEEP saying NON EU members we will control. The Parliament can not stop EU members states to come to the UK UNDER EU laws!! Which is wrong. I am all for Immigration but under a control manner. This why we have the best multi-cultural society in the world I think. Over 300 years of Immigration and with the EU we just opened the flood gates. So who gets hurt? None EU country's that bring in family and good talent that helps our country.

    I am so angry what's going on in the UK ever since I moved to the US! Moving to the US and looking back in made me realize how much we getting played.

    *end rant*
         
        07-10-2012, 09:56 PM
      #26
    Yearling
    I will get back to you on my reading of how he phrases it in his book. But I don't buy the media's usage of the word "communist" for a moment. They usually conflate it with "socialist," "progressive," and any liberal vaguely interested in challenging the economic status quo, who thinks the country should have more communitarian, rather than individualistic, social policies.

    I think it is hilarious, and sad, that modern discourse is borrowing rhetoric from worst excesses of the 1920s and 1950s, yet there is no Soviet Union ostensibly taking over Europe. The spread of communism and the "domino effect" was seen as a national security threat (one which, in retrospect, is now understood as a load of tosh). Putting yourself in the shoes of 1950s and 60s politicians, however, you can sympathise with them a bit, but only a bit as they were more than happy to label anyone who attacked the status quo as a "communist" and use such discourse as a tool to quash dissenting opinions, more often than not those of civil rights activists and indeed, anyone calling for more humanitarian platforms.

    But it's 2012. So the only response is, really? I mean, Joe McCarthy must be having an epic keg party, celebrating in his grave. So, really? Communism? That old chestnut?
         
        07-11-2012, 09:48 AM
      #27
    Banned
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by thesilverspear    
    Yes, what EvilHorseofDoom (great handle, by the way) said. Obama is not wildly right-wing, but he's not wildly left, either. As I said earlier, he's firmly centrist and to be honest, slightly right of centre. If he were in Britain, he would probably be a moderate Tory. For instance, as Evilhorse stated, he still very much embraces and supports the free market as the solution to most of the world's problems. The main difference on this issue between him (or the Democratic party, really) and US conservatives is that he wants to regulate it a weensie bit, whereas they believe in the sanctity of absolute laissez-faire capitalism. Nevermind that laissez faire has been tried before, at end of the nineteenth century and beginning of the twentieth century, and it didn't work then, either.

    You'll not convince me that politics in the US have not gotten extreme. And extremely right. There is now this marriage between economic libertarians and evangelicals which dominates political discourse. The truly progressive left wing is more or less silenced and the stuff the right screams about as being left wing, socialist, and horrible isn't really left at all.
    I am going to be polite and not make any assumptions, but your observation that Obama is a centrist or even a little right of center is a bit of a joke. His philosophy is liberal, he campaigned and ran as a liberal, and has governed as a liberal. There is absolutely nothing centrist or conservative about him.

    Furthermore, he is not in Britain - he is here. Britain has its own problems, as does all of Europe - prompted by a failed experiment of the very socialism you tout. I am always puzzled when people try to defend a failed system and criticize a successful one. You have made it quite clear where your loyalty lies, so why not worry about your own issues and let us worry about ours?

    Yes, the U.S. Is conservative. 40% of Americans are conservative, 35% are moderate, and only 21% are liberal. That's what we are, and what we have always been, just as other countries are what they are. Sorry if it bothers you that we are conservative, but honestly it isn't any of your concern, is it? We don't dwell on the fact that Britain and Europe are liberal because we recognize that it isn't really any of our business...
    kitten_Val and Lakotababii like this.
         
        07-11-2012, 10:29 AM
      #28
    Started
    Faceman, the EU problems have nothing to do with socialism. Italy was rife with corruption under Berlusconi, the Greeks didn't pay their taxes (a very rightwing approach to citizenship). The GFC was in part caused by a lack of regulation, partly by a lack of good, ethical governance within large corporates. David Cameron has made a meal of things in the UK by using a very rightwing approach and cutting benefits left, right and centre. I research social impact and I can tell you now that the cracks formed by these short term savings will be very expensive to fix in the long-term. Better to buy a safety net for Humpty Dumpty than wait for him to fall and try to put him back together again.

    I'm not a socialist myself, I believe that the market can offer solutions. But I also believe it can fail without proper systems in place to support it - and that view is backed by evidence provided by history. It seems even those on the right don't truly believe in a hands off approach and lassaiz-faire capitalism or the big investment banks would have been left for dead instead of being bailed out...
    Posted via Mobile Device
         
        07-11-2012, 10:31 AM
      #29
    Weanling
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by thesilverspear    
    Yes, what EvilHorseofDoom (great handle, by the way) said. Obama is not wildly right-wing, but he's not wildly left, either. As I said earlier, he's firmly centrist and to be honest, slightly right of centre. If he were in Britain, he would probably be a moderate Tory. For instance, as Evilhorse stated, he still very much embraces and supports the free market as the solution to most of the world's problems. The main difference on this issue between him (or the Democratic party, really) and US conservatives is that he wants to regulate it a weensie bit, whereas they believe in the sanctity of absolute laissez-faire capitalism. Nevermind that laissez faire has been tried before, at end of the nineteenth century and beginning of the twentieth century, and it didn't work then, either.

    You'll not convince me that politics in the US have not gotten extreme. And extremely right. There is now this marriage between economic libertarians and evangelicals which dominates political discourse. The truly progressive left wing is more or less silenced and the stuff the right screams about as being left wing, socialist, and horrible isn't really left at all.

    You're right. It's best you stay where you are. This is coming from a libertarian evangelical all wrapped into one. I am married to another libertarian evengelical so I guess you are right..............



    Quote:
    Originally Posted by Golden Horse    
    And there are times that I'm glad that I didn't get into America, yur political system isn't all that great folks, and I can't believe that you can't see the issues.

    We'll never know what Obama was capable of because of the other side chanting 'NO WE CAN'T' to everything that has has tried to do.

    Progress is so difficult

    I'm glad you didn't get in also. They must have seen you coming from miles away. :) Our culture has been corrupted too much already by socialist Europians. Do you forget that Obama had complete control of the house and senate for his first 2 years? He could have passed whatever he wanted. I decided to pass a "stimulous" package that padded the pockets of his donors and liberal friends instead of attacking real issues. Like illegal immigration.
         
        07-11-2012, 10:44 AM
      #30
    Foal
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by Faceman    

    Furthermore, he is not in Britain - he is here. Britain has its own problems, as does all of Europe - prompted by a failed experiment of the very socialism you tout. I am always puzzled when people try to defend a failed system and criticize a successful one. You have made it quite clear where your loyalty lies, so why not worry about your own issues and let us worry about ours?
    What socialism are you talking about? I find Americans throwing word around that don't even know what it means nor understanding. UK is not a socialist country at all... I agree the US politics is extreme and it is! Never known a country to throw mud so much and misinformation throw around to confuse the public.

    I find in US labeling people like socialist to communist throw so much this past 4 years... Only thing failing government back in UK is they not listening to the people and throwing power to the European Union which is Corrupt. Other than that I think we do pretty well thank you very much!


    Quote:
    Originally Posted by Bearkiller    

    I'm glad you didn't get in also. They must have seen you coming from miles away. :) Our culture has been corrupted too much already by socialist Europians.
    AGAIN *Epic facepalm* O.o .....
    Golden Horse likes this.
         

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