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Proposed nasty changes to UK immigration laws

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        07-11-2012, 11:50 AM
      #31
    Started
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by northwesten    
    What socialism are you talking about? I find Americans throwing word around that don't even know what it means nor understanding. UK is not a socialist country at all... I agree the US politics is extreme and it is! Never known a country to throw mud so much and misinformation throw around to confuse the public.

    I find in US labeling people like socialist to communist throw so much this past 4 years... Only thing failing government back in UK is they not listening to the people and throwing power to the European Union which is Corrupt. Other than that I think we do pretty well thank you very much!
    Yep! And the EU is just like FIFA without the football...
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        07-11-2012, 11:52 AM
      #32
    Foal
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by EvilHorseOfDoom    
    Yep! And the EU is just like FIFA without the football...
    Posted via Mobile Device
    You got me on FiFA I never like footbal nor follow what's going on in it.

    Rugby my game *cough*
         
        07-11-2012, 12:03 PM
      #33
    Weanling
    Those are tough new changes.

    For me, I'm currently going through the whole Family Class (common law) for permanent resident (and a new visa). The forms and evidence they want to support proof of James and I being together for at least 12 months is rather easy (We've had everything in joint names for 4 years).

    The only hickup is that due to the cost cutting to CIC it is now taking them 12 months to open any envelopes. Mine should be open in June next year, unless more cuts are made. Which puts me on an "implied status" meaning I can work legally, pay taxes etc etc but, my Provence health care will end due to not having a new visa until they open the envelope up, unless I have the paper work for them they will not recognize my status, although I am legal and in status, just as Implied. No biggy, I can buy travel insurance for time been but, say if by chance we fall pregnant (50% of pregnancies are not planned, no method is 100% fool proof) we are not covered for anything. In the event, god forbid, there is a family emergency back in Australia (death, major medical etc etc) if I leave Canada my application is cancelled. So I will be back to re-filling the paper work and un-able to work.

    We will be moving back to Alberta in the spring (James job) so the fun I am going to have to get a job with an expired visa but, still in status and legal to work, just without having any current paper work. My current visa expires in Nov this year, application was sent June 17th. If I was an employer, I wouldn't want to take the chance in hiring someone who's physical visa is expired, even if they are on Implied, it's too much risk.

    Say I was immigrating via the PNP, my length time for visa re-newal (while waiting PR status) is 6 weeks. Mine, 12 months or more.


    Some immigration rules really make the mind boggle.
         
        07-11-2012, 12:13 PM
      #34
    Yearling
    Where are you guys getting this stuff?

    First of all, not all countries in Europe are "socialist." In fact, none are completely "socialist" but some have more state-owned resources and state-run programs than others. As Evilhorse said, the ones with economies in the hole right now are ones where corruption has been rife for years and people didn't pay taxes (a very American idea!). I am sure the Swedes, Danes, Germans, Norwegians would be shocked to learn that their "socialist" states are failing. All are residents of countries with social welfare systems that would put the UK and US to shame and they are doing fine. The assertion that the UK is socialist is laughable. The current government is slashing budgets left and right and they still haven't turned the economy around.

    I'm really curious about the argument that "our culture has been corrupted by socialist Europeans." I have no idea what that means. I mean, what? You do realise that if you're a white American, your ancestors were European and it was European culture which formed the building blocks for American culture. Right?

    The current discursive climate does not leave room for nuance, but nuance is what's needed. Not extremes. A state which runs on complete laissez-fair capitalism won't work. Neither will one which has complete ownership and control of all industries. I think the free market is very good at some things, like developing technology and general entrepreneurship. I think it's terrible at others, like providing healthcare and public transport.

    BCTazzie, it's coldly comforting knowing that Canada is just as mental as Britain! I thought Canada was supposed to be friendly.
         
        07-11-2012, 12:23 PM
      #35
    Trained
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by Bearkiller    

    I'm glad you didn't get in also. They must have seen you coming from miles away. :) Our culture has been corrupted too much already by socialist Europians.

    I am deeply offended by that personal comment and am about to report it. I love America but unfortunately some of its people are not so pleasant.

    Just as a thought, where did the majority of Americans come from, at least in the early days.
         
        07-11-2012, 01:45 PM
      #36
    Yearling
    Can I just say that, although I don't agree with some of the posters, I RESPECTFULLY disagree

    This comment has absolutely no place in any debate. It is just mean. It does nothing except degrade another human being. Seriously we are all adults.


    Quote:
    Originally Posted by Bearkiller    


    I'm glad you didn't get in also. They must have seen you coming from miles away. :) Our culture has been corrupted too much already by socialist Europians..
    I am too an Evangelical. I am too a conservative, my entire family leans right, by quite a bit. I am also married to a right wing conservative.

    I can, however, be an adult and realize that just because someone doesn't agree with me does not mean that they shouldn't be allowed into the country.

    Socialism in and of itself has some good ideas. I don't disagree with the concept, I just don't think it a practical way to run anything for numerous reasons, which is why I don't support it. Do I think free market is better, yes, but it also has its limitations.

    I do agree that Obama could have gotten more done, to a point. He pushed through the healthcare bill pretty dang fast if you ask me. Obamacare seems to be where he earned his "socialist" name as it is a more socialist type ideal, on a basic level at least. Obama is a liberal, he holds left winged views. And yes, I understand that left here is different than left in Europe. But since the idea of universal health care is a big topic in America right now, we compare ourselves to Europe. Europe has universal health care, for the most part. Since we consider UHC to be a socialist type idea, we consider Europe to lean towards socialist ideas as well.

    I find it humorous that not paying taxes was said to be an American ideal. And just earlier in the conversation someone said something about being up to date in the year 2012, with the 60 and 50s being gone. Well then lets get up to date on America shall we? Sure we are for reducing taxes, but the right side doesn't want to get rid of taxes. The whole anti-tax thing started with the American revolution, where taxes were too high, as set by England. That was a while ago. We still hold those values of trying to maintain lower taxes, but to say that we are not for paying our taxes is false.

    I also find it humorous that someone pointed out how free market and American ideals don't work. Really? That's funny because we have the longest lasting original constitution of any country, and the govt, although changing, has not ever been overthrown or redrafted. Whereas socialist countries (I'll use the USSR as an example because they were brought up earlier) have had numerous revolutions and changing in constitutions. If I had to pick one that didn't work, it would be socialism.

    So yes, I understand that politics are different here in the US as compared to Europe, but then again, that's why our country was originally founded, because we wanted nothing to do with Europe's ideal society.
    Faceman, QOS and Speed Racer like this.
         
        07-11-2012, 02:09 PM
      #37
    Banned
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by northwesten    
    What socialism are you talking about? I find Americans throwing word around that don't even know what it means nor understanding. UK is not a socialist country at all... I agree the US politics is extreme and it is! Never known a country to throw mud so much and misinformation throw around to confuse the public.
    As that comment was directed at me, I hate to tell you this, but I have forgotten more about politics and economics than you will ever know. As a matter of fact, I was debating the advantages and disadvantages of socialism well before you were born. As most kids that attended college in the 60's in the US, I studied and explored socialism thoroughly - both academically and socially. Do not tell me what I do and don't know, thank you...
         
        07-11-2012, 02:12 PM
      #38
    Banned
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by Golden Horse    
    I am deeply offended by that personal comment and am about to report it. I love America but unfortunately some of its people are not so pleasant.

    Just as a thought, where did the majority of Americans come from, at least in the early days.
    Yeah,I agree - that was uncalled for. There is no need to reduce opposing ideologies to prejudicial cracks like that or the one I just replied to above...
         
        07-11-2012, 02:23 PM
      #39
    Yearling
    Yes, Lakota, I am all for reasoned argument.

    The Democrats have been trying to get universal healthcare for years and Obama is the first one to have actually achieved something. It's not perfect and I think a single-payer system is better, but it certainly takes some steps towards improving the rather disastrous system the US has at the moment. I believe Europe was looked to during the debates because most European countries have healthcare systems that work reasonably well. I'm reluctant to call that "socialism," as state-provided healthcare has been in existence in various forms long before such ideas were associated with "socialists" (a political theory term which has a long and varied history and more than one meaning).

    My crack about Americans not wanting to pay taxes was written with tongue firmly in cheek. In any case, the taxation issue with the American Revolution emerged out of the fact that colonists had not been paying *any* taxes to the British government, full stop. Then after the French and Indian War, Britain was feeling a bit skint and Parliament thought they should start taxing the colonies. As the colonies had been happily not paying tax for years, they had a view on this.

    I did say that a complete laissez-faire free market doesn't work. All the "regulations" which cause conservatives to have a hairy fit? They are there for a reason. The "Gilded Age" at the end of the 19th century was such an era where free markets were given their reins. What you then had was a situation where wealth was extremely concentrated in the hands of very few, monopolies, or "trusts," as they were known, were becoming huge and corrupting the political process, exploitation of workers was rampant, working conditions horrible, poverty and the disempowerment of the lower classes extreme. This is what eventually brought on the Progressive Era, the political mobilisation which addressed some of these issues and sought to improve conditions for the working classes.

    The USSR is a really bad example of socialism not working. Prior to the Russian Revolution, it was ruled by the Tsars, who were a centuries-old dictatorship of oligarchs. After the Revolution, the Bolsheviks came into power, keeping the dictatorship but getting rid of the oligarchs. The Bolsheviks got the Russian people behind them, preaching the ideals of communism, which would bring a measure of egalitarianism to a system that was very, very feudal. But that kind of egalitarian society never emerged out of it. It just goes to show that revolutions do not necessarily change a country's political culture.

    In fact, it has been suggested by social and political theorists that the Soviet economy was not really socialist at all, as the existence of a bureaucratic and hierarchical elite was integral to its functioning and it calculated its production using profit and distributed surplus profit and goods amongst managers and senior officials as bonuses. So while businesses were for the most part state-owned, they still operated on the principles of capitalism.
         
        07-11-2012, 02:41 PM
      #40
    Showing
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by thesilverspear    
    In fact, it has been suggested by social and political theorists that the Soviet economy was not really socialist at all, as the existence of a bureaucratic and hierarchical elite was integral to its functioning and it calculated its production using profit and distributed surplus profit and goods amongst managers and senior officials as bonuses. So while businesses were for the most part state-owned, they still operated on the principles of capitalism.
    Where this study is coming from? It's simply not true from what I know. There was no such a thing as "bonuses" or distributed profit really. BTW, while I agree that USSR was a great example of economy on failure (partially because everything belonged to the government or "country" if you like), what they have now is no better and can't be called "capitalistic" either.
         

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