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Rant about writing skills

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        04-13-2013, 06:24 PM
      #41
    Trained
    There used to be people who would teach for the love of it, but I agree that they need better pay. However, I do believe that there will be some fantastic potential, and indeed ex, teachers out there, who would not set foot in a school these days because of the lack of effective discipline. We also lose those who want to teach to open up children's minds and help them think, because so much of modern eduction is about simply reaching targets.
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        04-13-2013, 06:25 PM
      #42
    Showing
    The average annual income for a teacher in Arizona is in the neighborhood of $20,000. Where I work now, making minimum wage ($7.80/hr), I would make $15,000 in a year. I work Monday through Friday, 8am to 5pm with a mandatory one hour lunch every day. When I go home, my work does not come with me. A teacher usually is at the school from 7am to 5 or 6pm. They bring their work home with them on almost a daily basis. There is no overtime and the benefits are minimal, at best. They also have to deal with rowdy and belligerent students (my mom had a chair thrown at her by a student when she was substituting a first grade class) and upset, often irrational parents on a daily basis. They are not, however, allowed to discipline the children who get out of control...and the kids know it. Why on earth, then, would any SANE person want to be a teacher when, for slightly less pay, you can have better hours, better benefits and none of the stress?!

    One of my very good friends was a kindergarten and first grade teacher before she got married. Her annual income when she started teaching was $18,000. She was at school from 7am to usually 6pm. On the rare occasion that she was able to come over to my place and hang out, she would always bring a large stack of papers to be graded. We'd make popcorn, toss in a movie, and sit on the floor grading papers, usually until midnight.

    Usandpets, you may not have wanted to be a writer or a journalist, but at least you tried to learn enough about the written English language to communicate effectively.
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        04-13-2013, 06:42 PM
      #43
    Trained
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by usandpets    
    I disagree. Ever heard the saying, "You get what you pay for"? If teachers don't have a competitive salary, you won't get better teachers. We are having the same problem at my work. We manufacture products for the construction industry: roof trusses, floor joists, and walls. It is manufacturing but many think it IS construction. They think it should pay the same as construction jobs.

    The problem is that fast food places are paying similar wages as we do for manufacturing. So we are having difficult times finding decent workers. Not to mention that many that we hire and are the younger generation that think everything should be handed to them. They also think that the job is there for them and not that they are there for the job. More or less that they are paid to be there and not paid to work.

    So why don't we pay more? That would make our costs go up, prices of new homes and buildings would go up and our competitors would have to increase too or the contractors would just buy from them instead.

    Teachers on the other hand, don't have competition as we do. There is becoming a shortage of teachers. Why go into a job field that doesn't pay decent?
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    Teacher's salaries differ depending on state and county. Lets just say they start at 35K a "year" (9 month work year), that is the same as 46.6K a 12 month work year. And, their benefits are better than most any others. I would not call that low for a starting "package". They also get more holidays than most anyone in any other profession of which I am aware. . And, I am guessing few, if any, private schools can match the benefits offered by the public school system.

    My daughter attends a private school. Most all of her teachers were professionals in a field before they became a teacher, or they have little other job experience but have at least a masters in the field of study they teach. All of them I have spoken to on the subject, bar none, work at a private school b/c they really want to teach - but they will not teach at a public school. So, I think the public schools would have no difficulty whatsoever locating qualified teachers if they made their primary mission education and had some sort of reasonable discipline codes in place and enforced them.
         
        04-13-2013, 07:06 PM
      #44
    Showing
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by Missy May    
    Teacher's salaries differ depending on state and county. Lets just say they start at 35K a "year" (9 month work year), that is the same as 46.6K a 12 month work year. And, their benefits are better than most any others. I would not call that low for a starting "package". They also get more holidays than most anyone in any other profession of which I am aware. . And, I am guessing few, if any, private schools can match the benefits offered by the public school system.

    My daughter attends a private school. Most all of her teachers were professionals in a field before they became a teacher, or they have little other job experience but have at least a masters in the field of study they teach. All of them I have spoken to on the subject, bar none, work at a private school b/c they really want to teach - but they will not teach at a public school. So, I think the public schools would have no difficulty whatsoever locating qualified teachers if they made their primary mission education and had some sort of reasonable discipline codes in place and enforced them.
    My brother has a BS in Information Technologies, as does my brother-in-law. My brother makes $110K a year in Georgia working in the IT department of a large company (can't remember the field). He's not HEAD of the IT department, in fact, he's fairly low down on the totem pole. The head of the department is making closer to $150-160K a year (not including bonuses). He works Monsay through Friday with all major holidays off, paid. My brother-in-law works for Nissan as a manager in the sound engineering department. Before his promotion, he was making roughly $75K a year. Again, he works Monday through Friday with major holidays off, paid, as well as paid travel and vacations (he's been with Nissan for 10+ years, so he gets a lot of vacation).

    Neither my brother, nor my brother-in-law, have more schooling than my mom, who has her BA in Elementary Education. Yet their starting salaries were significantly higher (two to three times higher) than my mom's salary wa when she retired after ten years with the same school district. Teachers are salaried, yes, but they are only paid during the nine months that they work. During the summer, most teachers have to take a part-time or full-time job (unless they're lucky enough that their significant other works full-time and can support them on their wages) over the summer, usually making minimum wage.

    Also, I would LOVE to see a teacher who gets decent medical benefits. My friend that I mentioned earlier showed me her medical benefits statement once. My medical benefits, working full-time at Goodwill for basically minimum wage, were not only better than hers, but cost me less.
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        04-13-2013, 07:39 PM
      #45
    Super Moderator
    Start pay for a teacher in UK is: 21,588 to 31,552 - more for London areas.
    ($33,117 - 48,412) which is not bad by my book.

    My niece has just done her final year. She was out in schools teaching and had three pretty rough ones to go to. She has a natural flair for teaching and although some of these children were disruptive she had little difficulty in getting them to want to learn.
    The reports she received were far higher than any others in her group. I asked her how she kept control with the disruptive students and she answered "Same as you get control of an ill mannered horse stop it before it starts."

    I have never been a high wage earner. The only time I ever had a job with a bonus was after I broke my back and went into a job at an estate agents. Only thing was I got colds, hated getting up in the morning, found majority of the time boring and generally was miserable.

    I say teachers (good ones) are born not made. They deserve good pay and payments should be given to those that are best at the job regardless of what they are teaching. By this I mean the teacher who is taking children that are having problems because English is not their first language or learning problems and getting their grades up deserves paying as much as the teacher who is taking the A streams.

    Job satisfaction counts for a lot.

    As an aside I just wonder if things will go a full circle and teachers will be allowed to discipline once again!
         
        04-13-2013, 08:04 PM
      #46
    Super Moderator
    I don't think you can look at just the days and hours that are technically in the teacher's job year. They have a ton of training they have to do, and the homework and testing means a LOT of time spent at home. Also, the job is much, much more stressful than many similar jobs earning a similar salary. It requires a lot more creativity to deal with the diverse students that will be thrown at you, and the sometimes woeful lack of support they get from home.

    If you consider the way that teachers are paid in countries that score very high on education ratings (rating the success of the students), you can usually see that the teacher is paid a lot more than they are in the US.

    I think that a lot of this paying the teacher a very small amount stems from the way that teaching children has been seen as a job for women, and in the old days, single women, thus it was "OK" to pay a lot less. Often the women who taught at elementary/secondary shools lived at home with their parents, so a living wage was not needed. Once they married, they were expected to quit and live on their husband's salary.

    Anyway, I think a certain amount of that has persisted in the way that we value a teacher's education, as opposed to a computer programmer, or a engineer. They probably all took about 4 years to complete their higher education, but their value to society isn't measured equally.
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        04-13-2013, 08:29 PM
      #47
    Trained
    Drafty, people that have a passion for teaching, or anything, do not necessarily determine if they will pursue doing "x" based on what someone else w a four year degree in another field makes.

    Are the figures you cited adjusted for today's dollars? Just curious...not being poopy, here. How about their (IT workers in your example) retirement plan, how does it stack up? How Calstrs invests, for example, can significantly affect the stockmarket - it is huge. CA's teacher's retirement plan is pretty good and they can retire after 30 years. Many other states offer pretty darn good retirement packages as well.

    I have nothing against paying qualified people a good wage, however, the way the public school system is set up and the power of the teacher's union do not lend to "the most qualified" individuals getting hired or remaining employed. As it stands right now the argument from teachers is that if they were paid more they would become better teachers. They aren't asking to be replaced by more qualified people that will be paid more than the current wage. Based on this "how well I am able to do a job depends on how much you pay me" logic, if you pay me enough I can perform brain surgery w the best of them.

    Also, like I said above, a public school teacher's salary depends on which county in what state they are employed. So one can only talk about their salaries "in general". Private schools are the best "comparable" w respect to salaries, IMO, b/c the salaries offered by private schools are, by and large, no higher than those by the public school system and their benefits are definitely not as good. Yet, many of the private schools operating in all 50 states somehow manage to offer a much better education.

    The reason I personally feel public schools do so poorly overall and in general is a pretty simple one. The monies they collect per attending student is not spent on students equally. By and large, a bright student that behaves and tries to learn will have the fewest dollars spent on them. Not a formula for success.

    Sorry this is so long...but the current state of affairs w the US public school sytem really irritates me.
         
        04-13-2013, 08:40 PM
      #48
    Started
    I haven't read the entire thread, so I apologize in advance. I just wanted to throw out the fact that in high school from grade ten through twelve I took honours English and Advanced Placement Literature and it wasn't until college that I learned the technicalities of grammar. Commas, semi-colons, all of that fun stuff. I'm the queen of over-using commas, and run on sentences and I STILL managed to ace those classes without this correct knowledge.
         
        04-13-2013, 08:44 PM
      #49
    Green Broke
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by DraftyAiresMum    
    Usandpets, you may not have wanted to be a writer or a journalist, but at least you tried to learn enough about the written English language to communicate effectively.
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    Actually, I only learned enough to pass. However, more must have sunk in than I thought. LOL Either that or I've become a perfectionist in my old(er) age. I hate to admit that I'm in my 40's (I know not that old), because in my mind I think and I act like I'm in my 20's. Slowly, my body is trying to tell me my real age

    I think that I make an extra effort now because it irritates me to read something that runs on. I know everyone makes mistakes now and then. Yes, even me. Haha. Almost every post I make, I'll read through a couple times before actually posting. Just to make sure it's what and how I want to say it. I'll even reread it after I post and edit it if I missed something. Maybe I'm just being picky.
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        04-13-2013, 09:10 PM
      #50
    Showing
    Missy May, the numbers I quoted for teachers pay are accurate to within the last couple of years. I can't imagine they've gone up much, if any.

    My brother and brother-in-law both have great retirement/401K plans available to them. My mother (who, granted, retired over a decade ago) is pulling a meager $300 a month from her retirement. My friend who was a teacher until recently (within the last two years) couldn't afford to pay into a retirement/401K account (much in the same way that I can't afford to pay into a 401K and still bring home a livable wage at my current job).

    I do agree that people who get into teaching don't do it for the money, they do it because they love to teach. However, how backwards has our society become that those who play professional sports or fix computers make many times more what those who educate our children do? How can we expect those who do love teaching to continue doing so, when many of them barely make enough money to live on (yes, you can live on less than $20K a year, I'm living proof of that, but not when you're expected to provide your own supplies, the cost of which keeps going up)?
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