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post #101 of 235 Old 11-23-2011, 04:08 PM Thread Starter
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Do you ever feel like you're beating the proverbial dead horse? I know I do :) It's very easy to be skeptical of all new "science" when there is a clear agenda. There have been many cases of scientists promoting theory as fact. It's unfortunate but true. Are the new strains actually new or are they undiscovered or just plain modified versions (by environmental conditions such as medicines)?

This, too, shall pass........
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post #102 of 235 Old 11-23-2011, 11:43 PM
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I've watched this thread and waited for it to turn petty and full of personal attacks but I have to commend everyone that responded and particularly bearkiller and bubba13 for the way they have argued with tact and respect for others (for the most part).

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post #103 of 235 Old 11-24-2011, 12:05 AM
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Well, way to go, Kevin, you big mean fat poopy-head. You just ruined it for everybody. :roll:

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Are the new strains actually new or are they undiscovered or just plain modified versions (by environmental conditions such as medicines)?
At what point do you stop saying the strain has been modified to a high degree and start saying a new strain has developed? Is a wolf the same thing as a dog?
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post #104 of 235 Old 11-24-2011, 12:21 AM
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Originally Posted by bubba13 View Post
Well, way to go, Kevin, you big mean fat poopy-head. You just ruined it for everybody. :roll:



At what point do you stop saying the strain has been modified to a high degree and start saying a new strain has developed? Is a wolf the same thing as a dog?
Hm, it was my understanding that a new SPECIES has evolved when the two can no longer interbreed and create VIABLE offspring. The "viable" part has many facets, and the barrier can be mechanical (the reproductive organs don't fit), ...grrr...or a couple of other things including the offspring themselves are not capable of reproduction/are sterile.
I don't remember the specifics, but I can look them up. If anyone is REALLY motivated, I can go find my lecture notes on this. ;)

So wolves and dogs are reproductively viable and are both under the genus "Canis". If they were separated geographically or if a mutation made them no longer mechanically viable, then they'd be a new species. This process is called "speciation" and you can find a fairly simple explanation on Wiki.

As far as the whole "something out of nothing" approach, there are still several THEORIES out there floating around, including some very very good ones on how the planet formed and made all these neat layers. To be honest, I find it easier to believe something that can be physically demonstrated or proved instead of all the metaphysical explanations. After all, once upon a time, people thought that flies formed magically out of garbage... In any case, I have not read the whole thread, I've read...the beginning and the end, so if this was already covered, sorry. Agreed that we are not carnivores, that is easily evidenced by the structure of our jaws and observation of the larger primates. One evolutionary explanation for our ancestors gaining the ability to stand (while retaining opposible thumbs ;)) is the idea that we walked from the trees to the discarded kills to scavenge. It was a LONG time ago that I studied phys anth, but I was under the impression that the nutrition obtained by the acquisition of meat was accompanied by the massive expansion in brain size shown by the fossil record. XD Again, if anyone is ...really super motivated I can go find my notes or research it. If not, just some things to chew on...I should be (pre) studying for next term's Calc course, so I'll go back to that. XD

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post #105 of 235 Old 11-24-2011, 12:37 AM
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The problem is that there is really no way to define "species." It's no good. Wolves and dogs are counted as separate species, and they look different and act different, but will willingly interbreed to create viable hybrids. Or take lions and tigers--they've been isolated for a long time, yet again will interbred, with viable offspring, that themselves can go on to create such odd creatures as Ti-tigons, which are 75%/25%. It gets pretty freaky....



Even the occasional mule has produced a foal. And when it comes to plants, anything's game. They'll hybridize like nobody's business.
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post #106 of 235 Old 11-24-2011, 12:39 AM
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The problem is that there is really no way to define "species." It's no good. Wolves and dogs are counted as separate species, and they look different and act different, but will willingly interbreed to create viable hybrids. Or take lions and tigers--they've been isolated for a long time, yet again will interbred, with viable offspring, that themselves can go on to create such odd creatures as Ti-tigons, which are 75%/25%. It gets pretty freaky....



Even the occasional mule has produced a foal. And when it comes to plants, anything's game. They'll hybridize like nobody's business.
You can look upon those (such as the mule) as outliers. It is not common and is probably so rare as to skew the statistic.

ETS: Big cats, like dogs are pretty closely related. And it is fair to say that MOST of the hybrids are sterile, and their genetic line ends with them which is why they are termed as not viable.

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post #107 of 235 Old 11-24-2011, 01:07 AM
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Reading up on wild (and domestic) plant hybrids is pretty interesting. Plants are kinda ****ty. ;)

And how about the case of the beefalo? Domestic cattle and buffalo were, again, geographically isolated for quite a long time, yet they will still interbreed quite ready, producing very much viable offspring that is then crossed with cattle for several generations. Yet I don't think that anyone would argue that a Holstein and a buffalo are the same species.





I just think there's a fundamental problem with our definition of "species."
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post #108 of 235 Old 11-24-2011, 01:21 AM
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Hm, I suppose you have a point if you look at it that way. I do note that they are fairly closely related: Bovidae, Bovinae, and only diverge at Genus level.

I wonder what they taste like xD
I may not eat meat very often...but I do like buffalo. =P

In any case, with respect to defining species, it doesn't always work that way with mammals at least. We are closely related to the great apes, yet we do not interbreed. I've watched my roosters mount quail (hens and roos), and none of those matings are viable. With respect to taxonomy, I imagine that they are probably closely related....except they diverge at family instead of genus.

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post #109 of 235 Old 11-24-2011, 01:31 AM
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Hm, I suppose you have a point if you look at it that way. I do note that they are fairly closely related: Bovidae, Bovinae, and only diverge at Genus level.
Well, of course. Elsewhere someone was suggesting cat/pig hybrids (Zony?? )....obviously that's not going to happen!

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I wonder what they taste like xD
I may not eat meat very often...but I do like buffalo. =P
Supposedly pretty good. I think it's allegedly healthier than regular beef, maybe more red meat and leaner? My boss just got a big herd of them to raise.
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post #110 of 235 Old 11-25-2011, 04:06 PM
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The problem is that there is really no way to define "species." It's no good. Wolves and dogs are counted as separate species, and they look different and act different, but will willingly interbreed to create viable hybrids. Or take lions and tigers--they've been isolated for a long time, yet again will interbred, with viable offspring, that themselves can go on to create such odd creatures as Ti-tigons, which are 75%/25%. It gets pretty freaky....



Even the occasional mule has produced a foal. And when it comes to plants, anything's game. They'll hybridize like nobody's business.
Now Bubba, the reason dogs and wolves, tigers and lions and horses and donkeys and zebras and horses can mate is because they have the same genus. This is close enough in the classification in the DNA that they can mate but the offspring is sterile so to make more you start over again. And people and apes are 99% same DNA but if you go to a classification chart and compare chimps and people we split off a ways at the top so thank god were are to far away to be that closely related to apes. And to keep it back to topic, I am not a vegetarian because I love meat and now another biology class, we humans are designed to be omnivores eat meat and plant material. Our earliest monkey ancestors would probably have been herbivores eating just plants. But over time we have become to have canine teeth meant to help rip meat off bone and were designed to eat meat wit out teeth if you ever look at them. And then compare them to some one in the back yard your horse and see how there teeth look. Flat and large and ours normally ridges and alternating "shapes" made to chew flesh where a horse grinds food. You can eat plants and be fine its just it takes longer to turn lettuce into lets say Allison Finch. Where meat is a lot closer in matter to Allison Finch. And that's why we have a single stomach and cows have 4 and horses have a big one that is just one like us.



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