Barefoot Clydesdale - Page 2 - The Horse Forum
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post #11 of 31 Old 01-30-2014, 08:56 PM
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If a sole is stretched out it's thinner than it should be - Why take away that protection of the extra dead sole? I believe that trimming away the hoof wall and bar height that may be holding onto that dead sole (think a cookie cutter with dough stuck in it) and letting it A) grow down back into it's proper shape/size so sole is not stretched, and B) let it flex naturally - it will shed that excess sole when it no longer needs it. You could bring a horse down to live sole but it could be thin in odd places. Faster isn't always better, I'm glad I didn't carve away, especially since my guy had rotation. Every case will be different of course...
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post #12 of 31 Old 01-30-2014, 09:08 PM
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ah! I can't edit my post, I left it too long!

I was going to ask what the concern or issue was in your mind of leaving excess sole on a flat hoof?
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post #13 of 31 Old 01-30-2014, 10:18 PM
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I SOOO disagree with you Fluffy. *Generally of course - there are many exceptions. I thought once, as you do, that it was important to trim for 'concavity', when I started learning all this about 15 or so years ago. But I soon found otherwise & the more I learned & experienced over the years, the more incorrect the idea of thinning sole & forcing concavity seems to me. This theory just doesn't generally work well in the real world, IME. Horses may or may not need a certain amount of 'concavity', depending on a few factors & may or may not have healthy, well functioning feet regardless of concavity. But what they all need is depth of sole.

Quote:
Originally Posted by princessfluffybritches View Post
If I expose live sole without trimming into it, the sole already has the shape of concavity.
Yes. That's not to say it's a good reason to do it though. Esp if you do it routinely, esp if you do it on an already very likely thin soled hoof like you've shown. I think paring down to the live sole plane can absolutely be helpful to see the 'real' foot clearly, sometimes necessary in further trims too. Often IMO lumps & bumps should be reduced. Depending on the environment etc, sometimes I will attend to a horse who routinely has way too much build up of sole & does indeed need a lot removed(cushings horses, donkeys & minis often in that boat), but they are the exceptions to the 'rule'.

Quote:
A build up of sole and compression of it is not what "wild " horses do. They exfoliate on a daily basis-
But they DO absolutely also have a thick, well calloused sole, if the environment is conducive. If wild horses live in an abrasive environment & travel many miles daily, they will likely have no **excessive** build up of sole, but that's not the same as the live sole. If a domestic horse was in the same environment/lifestyle, you can expect similar.

That is also far from the way of life & being for so many horses, esp domestics, and there are generally REASONS for dead sole becoming thick. Paring away a fair bit of sole monthly or 6 weekly is also very different in effect to minute amounts being worn away every step.

Quote:
IMO we should not be leaving sole to be compressed into concavity. The live sole never gets a chance to harden up like it should
Live sole should NOT be dried out & dead at all, IMO. If you pare off the callouses on your own soles, you'll get to soft, moist live skin too, which will of course dry out quickly. That is FAR from a reason to keep paring it regularly to keep drying it out. There is a reason it keeps growing.

IMO & E, the callouses should absolutely be allowed to develop & the sole allowed to become thick. In most cases I see, including, it appears, your own horse Fluff, the soles are already too thin WITHOUT exfoliating. The horse cannot ever develop thick, healthy soles if you keep removing the material!
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post #14 of 31 Old 01-30-2014, 10:38 PM
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I LOVE your post, Loosie. A lot of what you said is what my own opinion is, in my very limited experience. Everyone says the mustang foot is the ideal hoof. But there are so many mustangs in such varied terrain.

There's the ideal "rock crushers", but there's also extremely flat footed mustangs. It's all on environment, diet, and exercise. A horse stalled all day will not have the same hoof as a horse out on Rocky terrain 24/7. There's just no way. False Concavity is probably more harmful than a flat foot is.

Feet even vary between breeds. Henny has a nice concave foot as a paint. Bubba, my Welsh pony, has a flat foot. They are on the exact same diet, exact same turnout, exact same trim. The only difference is breed and conformation.

Conformation plays a role as well on hoof mechanics. Upright pasterns, Coon footed, toed out. They all impact what the hoof will look like.

I just think it's odd to force something "natural" on a domestic horse whose life is anything but natural. Sole will exfoliate on its own when the horse doesn't need it. There are some cases where it doesn't, and only in those cases would I remove any sole. But that's just me, and my very limited experience.
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post #15 of 31 Old 01-30-2014, 10:46 PM
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As loosie pointed out, I've found that leaving the "old" excess sole hasn't ever been a problem and I tend to leave it.. Folding bars are bad, but the sole hasn't created any issues. I do scrub them down with a good wire brush to make sure they're evened it out a bit, but tend to leave the general build up alone.
Can't take credit for figuring it out myself though. My grandfather told me for the be benefit of the protection it affords and doesn't hurt to leave some of the old sole. Like 90% of the things he told me I've found him to be pretty much spot on. So obviously even the old timer horsemen didn't have a consensus any more than the new age ones do .
I often wish I'd written down or ran a recorder for all the things he said and did (super 8 movie cameras were new back then ). So much information that I know I've forgotten and lost between the cracks over the years. He was from an era when horses were your transportation, farm power, etc. They had to get it right and so much of what today is commonly practiced as the old and accepted way actually runs contrary to what he and the family did 100+ years ago. He might not have always known why something needed to be done a certain way, but modern studies and knowledge have been proving him right.
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post #16 of 31 Old 02-03-2014, 07:49 PM Thread Starter
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I SOOO disagree with you Fluffy. *Generally of course - there are many exceptions. I thought once, as you do, that it was important to trim for 'concavity', when I started learning all this about 15 or so years ago. But I soon found otherwise & the more I learned & experienced over the years, the more incorrect the idea of thinning sole & forcing concavity seems to me. This theory just doesn't generally work well in the real world, IME. Horses may or may not need a certain amount of 'concavity', depending on a few factors & may or may not have healthy, well functioning feet regardless of concavity. But what they all need is depth of sole.


Quote:
Originally Posted by princessfluffybritches
If I expose live sole without trimming into it, the sole already has the shape of concavity.

Yes. That's not to say it's a good reason to do it though. Esp if you do it routinely, esp if you do it on an already very likely thin soled hoof like you've shown. I think paring down to the live sole plane can absolutely be helpful to see the 'real' foot clearly, sometimes necessary in further trims too. Often IMO lumps & bumps should be reduced. Depending on the environment etc, sometimes I will attend to a horse who routinely has way too much build up of sole & does indeed need a lot removed(cushings horses, donkeys & minis often in that boat), but they are the exceptions to the 'rule'.


Quote:
A build up of sole and compression of it is not what "wild " horses do. They exfoliate on a daily basis-
But they DO absolutely also have a thick, well calloused sole, if the environment is conducive. If wild horses live in an abrasive environment & travel many miles daily, they will likely have no **excessive** build up of sole, but that's not the same as the live sole. If a domestic horse was in the same environment/lifestyle, you can expect similar.

That is also far from the way of life & being for so many horses, esp domestics, and there are generally REASONS for dead sole becoming thick. Paring away a fair bit of sole monthly or 6 weekly is also very different in effect to minute amounts being worn away every step.


Quote:
IMO we should not be leaving sole to be compressed into concavity. The live sole never gets a chance to harden up like it should
Live sole should NOT be dried out & dead at all, IMO. If you pare off the callouses on your own soles, you'll get to soft, moist live skin too, which will of course dry out quickly. That is FAR from a reason to keep paring it regularly to keep drying it out. There is a reason it keeps growing.

IMO & E, the callouses should absolutely be allowed to develop & the sole allowed to become thick. In most cases I see, including, it appears, your own horse Fluff, the soles are already too thin WITHOUT exfoliating. The horse cannot ever develop thick, healthy soles if you keep removing the material!

************************************************** *********


Loosie, nothing to disagree about. I don't think I was clear enough.

The lady with the Clyde. Big wide flat feet. She's not my customer, she was just looking for information, and I said I'd ask around. I can't give her advice on this. I was wondering about how much someone would exfoliate on a big flat hoof like this.


Then I was thinking about what I experienced with mine, and posted my "theory" because I couldn't think of any other reason why my horse had flat soles due to dead sole buildup, winced and stumbled on pebbles and uneven ground. I exfoliated to live sole, which left the hoof concave, and a rock hard surface formed over it within 2 days. She no longer stumbles over the rocky driveway or uneven ground. She strided down the driveway every day and not once winced or stumbled.

I would like to hear another reason for this happening. I, too, have always left sole for protection. But I wonder if there's a way that it's worked against her. This is not the first time I've noticed this.

That picture is deceiving. She does not have thin soles. Really.

I guess what I'm getting at is the hoof quickly grows what the hoof needs. If you have layers of dead sole on top of the layer that should be converting from live sole to dead sole, are you slowing the process that a healthy hoof needs? Does leaving layers of dead sole actually slow the process of live sole converting to dead sole? Can layers of dead sole actually create thin soles because they prevent the stimulation that live sole needs to put out more sole faster?
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post #17 of 31 Old 02-04-2014, 03:56 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by princessfluffybritches View Post
Loosie, nothing to disagree about. ...Then I was thinking about what I experienced with mine, and posted my "theory" because I couldn't think of any other reason why my horse had flat soles due to dead sole buildup,
THAT is precisely what I was disagreeing with. I also suspect the reason for your horse's flat soles are not due to sole buildup, but due to the stretching that is present. *However, I notice you said the horse's soles weren't thin, so maybe I got the wrong idea from previous posts & this is a different horse or some such?

IF however, *healthy* sole 'builds up' around the frog, it is often because it needed to be there IME, such as horses that only work in boots or on hard, flat surfaces - flat, unyielding surfaces provide no support to the inner sole otherwise. If she went from flat environment to yielding/rough, then yes, I agree excess sole could be an issue(never seen it be one tho, usually comes out by itself), but if so, you shouldn't have to *keep* removing it.

Quote:
winced and stumbled on pebbles and uneven ground. I exfoliated to live sole, which left the hoof concave, and a rock hard surface formed over it within 2 days. She no longer stumbles over the rocky driveway
Hmm, what other changes have happened? Diet/nutritional changes? Could she have possibly been suffering LGL? Have you also relieved stretched toes, underrun heels, thrushy frogs, etc?

Quote:
I guess what I'm getting at is the hoof quickly grows what the hoof needs. If you have layers of dead sole on top of the layer that should be converting from live sole to dead sole, are you slowing the process that a healthy hoof needs? Does leaving layers of dead sole actually slow the process of live sole converting to dead sole? Can layers of dead sole actually create thin soles because they prevent the stimulation that live sole needs to put out more sole faster?
Yes, the hoof grows what it needs... if it's allowed to & the growth isn't continually pared away. If it is pared, but keeps 'bouncing back', more likelihood there's a reason for that IMO. IME there should always be at least a thin layer of dead sole on top of live - paring down to 'find the foot' notwithstanding. No, leaving what is needed does not 'slow' any 'conversion' IMO or create thin soles, or prevent stimulation.
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post #18 of 31 Old 02-04-2014, 11:05 AM Thread Starter
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Thanks, Loosie. It must be someone else's horse that had thin soles.

But now I will leave some sole for protection. I think that she was overloaded with sole from living on grass and grass rings. I'm still working on her run forward toes and heels. Maybe I should do her at 4 weeks and not 6.
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post #19 of 31 Old 02-04-2014, 12:03 PM
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Our clyde x has typical Clydesdale feet and she's barefoot and has no problem with bruising or cracks - I wonder if your friends needs to manage the horses diet differently?
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post #20 of 31 Old 02-05-2014, 09:30 PM Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jaydee View Post
Our clyde x has typical Clydesdale feet and she's barefoot and has no problem with bruising or cracks - I wonder if your friends needs to manage the horses diet differently?
She may need to.
I would personally hate to see my horse having pain of abcesses every few months. Either use boots or shoes. I really do doubt that she can maintain using boots properly.

I personally think that a better trim would hold those feet together better. There's another woman who had her horse done by a trimmer who graduated kc LaPierre's course, and those hooves were perfect. The trimmer moved and same farrier now does her feet and they are spreading wider, and wider.
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