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Calling all hoof experts. Loosie? Ricci's hoof saga.

29K views 151 replies 29 participants last post by  loosie 
#1 ·
Some of you may remember my threads about my mare, Ricci and her foot/leg problems. Basically, her feet hurt, causing strain on her tendons in the back of her front legs and [we assume] in the soft tissue of her feet. I have had my vet out. Approximately 9 months ago, he took x-rays to rule out navicular, and all looked normal. He did a nerve block just above her foot, and she was moving better, therefore showing the problem is in her foot.

Now the point of this thread is about my current farrier and possibly switching to a new one. I have been using this farrier since the problem occurred. He came vet recommended. First, he put natural balance shoes on her. They seemed to help at first and then the second time around, I saw it wasn't helping. So we have been doing just trims. I put her on a strict 6-week schedule, but that seemed too long, and went to a 5-week schedule. She is due this week.

I had a barefoot trimmer come out this afternoon and give me a consult. She said the bubbly wave she has going on is indication that she is growing an angle that is not consistent with the trim she has been getting. She said her quarters were left too wide, and she has actually grown too much heel. Everything she said made sense, and Ricci obviously needs a change. If my current farrier was working, I would see evidence of some kind of improvement, right?

In my attempt to keep this post from being too ridiculously long, I may have left some things out, so please ask me if you have any questions. These pictures were taken today of her left front foot, the one that was bothering her the most to begin with.

Here, you can see how her hoof is trying to grow straight down, but is flaring out.


Here, you can see how it flares out.


And from underneath, you can see a faint ridge in her toe, that the BT said was from keeping her toe too long, except she said it in fancier words. Basically, I understood it like the white line or whatever it's called should be much closer to that ridge.


What do you think? Can you tell me anything from these pictures, or give me any suggestions? I'll take another picture of her heel to show how much she has tonight. Thank you so much for any and all input.
 
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#2 ·
I am not very educated about proper hoof care and all that, especially in barefoot horses, but it definitely looks like her toes are too long. Though her entire hoof capsule looks really long.

A part of her lameness issues might also be due to her conformation, as straight as her pasterns are, there is very little shock absorption on ever stride.
 
#3 · (Edited)
Sorry, that first caption for the first picture should have said it showed that bubbly thing she has going on.

ETA: Yes, the barefoot trimmer said the same thing about her hoof capsule. And I know her conformation doesn't help her out any, but I don't think this is a conformation issue just yet. She had never been lame at all before all this. I know it's possible, I'm just not ready to chalk it up to confo yet. =]

At any rate, I'm glad you're echoing the words of the BT.
 
#4 ·
Her hooves do look long, though her hoof wall isn't over grown... the bumps are quite visible though i'm not personally certain what would cause it. Is it in all feet or just one? SHe may have formed an absess of somesort underneith the hoof wall... hmm...
 
#5 ·
Just had a thought, though i may be wrong... my old pony used to be quite prone to founder & everytime afertwards he'd get swelled rings like you see in the photo on his hoof wall (he usually got it in the one foot really bad & was always tender in it afterwards).
Is it possible that she has had minor bouts of founder? Somtimes, if it's just a minor case, you cant always tell because the horse just seems a little sore & isn't completely lame... just an errant thought
 
#6 ·
I don't think you need a new farrier as much as you need a new vet. I don't see anything about that trim that should be causing chronic lameness. It may not be perfect but it shouldn't cause lameness.
 
#14 ·
I have to agree with Kevin.

I admit the hoof angle does not match her pastern angles, but like has already been said, she has such posty pasterns I am not sure you would want her feet that vertical.


To give you some story of why I agree with Kevin. Nerve blocks showed my old guy's lameness was in his hoof area. Other than a slight amount of arthritic change that the vet was pretty sure was not enough to cause the amount of lameness we were seeing the slew of x-rays did not show anything you would not expect.
Then we pulled out the ultrasound machine. There was a lesion on the collateral ligament.

Not something you can find easily by just touching and poking.
 
#7 ·
With a trim due, it's hard to judge current condition because all horses grow differently and I rarely see a hoof that goes so long between trims as I do my own, but here's what I would question.
Fish Jaw Fish Tooth


Agree with flaring on sides. No toe callous -- maybe working on it? Hopefully it has not been trimmed away.

Areas circled in black look like overgrowth to be trimmed. Areas circled in red could be thrush? Area in blue -- what's going on there? Perhaps some previous damage there?
 
#8 · (Edited)
No, she's not foundering. Thanks for trying though! And Kevin, sorry, my vet isn't wrong. Or rather, the nerve block can't lie. The pain is in her foot and this farrier/trim isn't helping. I have nothing against the farrier, he's actually very sought after. But just like training, there is no end-all, be-all in the farrier world. She may have a tendon issue now, but I can't fix it until I fix the foot issue. All signs point to the foot.

ETA: Forgot to add, both front feet are similar, her back feet are fine.

I still have to take a look at the circled picture, NorthernMama, but what is toe callus and what should it look like? I don't know what previous damage could have happened in that one spot, I'll take a closer look and ask the next person I have out for her. And yes, she's definitely thrushy. My pastures are a mess.

ETA 2: Oh, I'll make sure to take pictures as soon as she gets trimmed. I didn't realize being due is harder to analyze than just done, lol.
 
#13 ·
And Kevin, sorry, my vet isn't wrong. Or rather, the nerve block can't lie. The pain is in her foot and this farrier/trim isn't helping.
I'm not saying that the pain isn't in the foot. I'm saying that the trim probably isn't going to fix it by itself. There may be something happening internally that didn't show up on the x-rays the first time or that your vet missed. I don't think the way she is trimmed is causing her the lameness.
 
#11 ·
I think it's flaring because the inside (medial side) is higher than the outside. I don't think the flare itself is a problem, but rather a symptom that her feet are out of balance. Just my humble opinion. I trim my own horses but am not a professional farrier. But that is what I see.

It wouldn't hurt to rasp the breakover back at the toe. In other words, rocker that toe more like the shape of the natural balance shoe, so she has less toe to trip over or strain her tendons. Again, just some ideas.
 
#12 ·
Ooh, ok. NorthernMama, I *think* that's just a shadowy part of her frog. I'll be sure to take a closer in the morning and let you know.

Trail, thanks for the input. That was one of the things I thought of. My original farrier gave her a nice break-over, I think she called it a mustang roll, and Ricci never had a problem with her. In fact, when I stopped using that farrier [she was a little looney and it got uncomfortable having her at the barn] is when Ricci started having problems. The following farrier didn't do anything drastic. Maybe it could be something as simple as a better break over. =]

If it matters, the original farrier trimmed her that way because when I got Ricci, she had a huge crack in her left front toe and did that break-over to relieve the pressure on it so it could grow out. Would that be a different kind of thing than a mustang roll?

Also, would that toe crack be relevant? It's been gone for two years now, but I have no idea how long she had it before that, although she was sound on it.
 
#15 · (Edited)
Hmm... I'll press for ultrasounds when the vet comes out to do teeth. Between Ricci's colic and Gracie's mysterious jowl swelling, I simply can't afford him to come out before that. In any case, I'm not happy with her feet. So in the meantime, I do want to see something change. As was said, the trim itself isn't bad, nor is the farrier, but her feet never looked this bad before I started changing farriers. But I'll be sure to get ultrasounds when he is out next if nothing changes. Thank you both!

ETA: Could having poorly trimmed feet for this amount of time be the cause? I mean, if her feet looked like this for the last 9 months, would that cause chronic lameness? It's an honest question. =]
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#16 · (Edited)
I don't feel I am experienced enough to give you any advice, although from the pictures I can spot a few things that seem "wrong". I look forward to seeing Loosie's thoughts on your mare's condition.

I'd be very interested in seeing her x-rays, if you had any way to post them on here. From the front/side view it would appear as though her feet are terribly long, but the sole view shows that she really can't go any shorter at this point either. This is something I dealt with initially with Amarea's Rain as well. Careful trimming and booted riding has helped some of Rain's inner structures recede back into the hoof capsule quite a bit in a fairly short time. Ricci's toes seem very long, and her quarters sure look like they could be a bit shorter, especially in light of the flaring and separation at the white line. How long has the current farrier been working with her? Remember a hoof doesn't grow all that quickly, it can take a good amount of time to see results from what is being done. I'd sure like to see a more exaggerated rolled edge and the breakover brought a bit further back though.

ETA - in response to your edit lol. Freyja has some lasting unsoundness off and on, although believed to be caused initially from her hoof problems, the soreness that crops up is resulting arthritis from hobbling around for so many years. Her hooves are now sound, but her joints sustained some damage in the meantime. However if you had a nerve block that demonstrated the pain was limited to the hoof, I should think you are still dealing with a hoof problem.
 
#17 ·
I don't think that the trim alone would cause lameness. It's not horrendous, just not great.

Due to lack of toe callous she could be more sensitive; if there is a great deal of thrush there that has progressed, that could make her sore. She could, as suggested, have some soft tissue strain that could make her off. This would be due to the long toes, or being out of balance, though I can't see that on these pics. Not saying it isn't so, I just don't see it. Or it could be a combination of factors, one of which could be something totally different - like she smacked her foot on something without you realizing. Also we are seeing only one hoof here. If I had to attribute lameness to the hoof, I would go with thrush, but that's a stretch I think.

As for the mustang roll -- If your previous trimmer said she was doing a mustang roll, that's probably all she was doing. She may have been a bit more aggressive on it to relieve the crack, but maybe not. W/out pics of course we can't even guess.

Personally, I'd put up with the nutty trimmer if she treats my horse right rather than the polite farrier who screws it up. Who are you gonna call this time?
 
#18 ·
Thanks for the insight, you guys.

Indy, I have been using this farrier for approximately 9 months. Plenty of time for him to make a difference. It could be a deeper problem, but it's all I have to go on after several vet visits.

Northern, the thrush is no worse than normal for her this time of year. And the original, good farrier wasn't just a little nutty. She texted my friend when she was also at the barn and was doing her horse as well as mine. Anyway, it was like 10pm and she was asking if she could borrow my friends trailer to move her horses because the police were after her and she had to move her horses now but couldn't use her trailer because the tabs were expired. I may be over-reacting but it made us both very uncomfortable, combined with her other strange behavior. That and when I did let her know I was going to start using someone else, she went a little stalker-ish on me. o_O
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#20 ·
Trailhorserider, I think I see the imbalance you are talking about now. I wonder if it is really there or if it's the angle of the pic? Is this what you mean? You're right, it does seem to be out quite a bit.


Man, I love analyzing hoof pics. Wish I had more time. Maybe I could get halfway good at it and get my own horse's front feet right <sigh>
 
#21 ·
Oh wow, I never would have noticed that. I tried to make it as level a picture as possible, and that it was exactly head-on. I'll see if I can try again and be extra anal. Please excuse my poor word choice, lol. I still need to take a few more pictures, I will for sure do that in the morning. Thanks so much for taking the time to analyze, especially if you aren't doing your own horse, lol.

Would it help if I got more pictures of the rest of her feet? Her hind feet are fine, and the other front is very similar to the one in the pictures. But I don't know if it would help. I'll also try to get a full-on of both front feet and a confo shot of her legs.
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#22 ·
I do have to point out that there was a horse at my old place who was an ex-hunter jumper horse, showed up lame for some reason, and the previous owners paid for lots of care, but left the horse in a box stall for a couple years, then finally dad decided to sell/get rid of horse because it was costing money and they weren't even using him. I don't know exactly what is wrong term wise, but he needs to get shots in his right navicular bursa every few months, he's doesn't have founder or anything, just an old injury that supplements alone don't relieve. I do know that his x-rays don't show anything really abnormal. Just something to think about.
 
#23 ·
Yeah, you do bring up a good point. However, it's certainly not an old injury flaring up. She's never been injured. Shes not even arthritic. Aside from being sore after a hard ride and an abscess or two, this is the ONLY thing that ever put a hitch in her step. As I said, if nothing changes by teeth time, I'll definitely get more x-rays and an ultrasound done. Thanks for popping in!

I did try stall rest but it didn't help and just made her nutty. It's easier to let her wander in the pasture than spin in her stall. :roll:
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#27 ·
Yeah, that's the plan. I do like the guy, and wouldn't mind suggesting him to my friends and such. He will at least do one more trim, and I will talk to him about my consult and see what he has to say. Either way though, he trim does have to change. I don't like her feet right now.

Also, the barefoot trimmer had said she could probably fix Gracie's flare. All her feet flare out a pretty ridiculous amount, and she said with her being young, changing the trim may be enough to get her growing straight feet. When I asked the farrier in using now about it, he said that's just the way her feet were. o_O
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