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Calling all hoof experts. Loosie? Ricci's hoof saga.

29K views 151 replies 29 participants last post by  loosie 
#1 ·
Some of you may remember my threads about my mare, Ricci and her foot/leg problems. Basically, her feet hurt, causing strain on her tendons in the back of her front legs and [we assume] in the soft tissue of her feet. I have had my vet out. Approximately 9 months ago, he took x-rays to rule out navicular, and all looked normal. He did a nerve block just above her foot, and she was moving better, therefore showing the problem is in her foot.

Now the point of this thread is about my current farrier and possibly switching to a new one. I have been using this farrier since the problem occurred. He came vet recommended. First, he put natural balance shoes on her. They seemed to help at first and then the second time around, I saw it wasn't helping. So we have been doing just trims. I put her on a strict 6-week schedule, but that seemed too long, and went to a 5-week schedule. She is due this week.

I had a barefoot trimmer come out this afternoon and give me a consult. She said the bubbly wave she has going on is indication that she is growing an angle that is not consistent with the trim she has been getting. She said her quarters were left too wide, and she has actually grown too much heel. Everything she said made sense, and Ricci obviously needs a change. If my current farrier was working, I would see evidence of some kind of improvement, right?

In my attempt to keep this post from being too ridiculously long, I may have left some things out, so please ask me if you have any questions. These pictures were taken today of her left front foot, the one that was bothering her the most to begin with.

Here, you can see how her hoof is trying to grow straight down, but is flaring out.


Here, you can see how it flares out.


And from underneath, you can see a faint ridge in her toe, that the BT said was from keeping her toe too long, except she said it in fancier words. Basically, I understood it like the white line or whatever it's called should be much closer to that ridge.


What do you think? Can you tell me anything from these pictures, or give me any suggestions? I'll take another picture of her heel to show how much she has tonight. Thank you so much for any and all input.
 
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#89 ·
Not the greatest pic, but shows the 'up and down' and width straightness I'm referring too...
Not sure what you're trying to get at with that pic M2P, but that hoof appears to have a lot of flaring/separation on the right side at least.

RL, Not sure what that last pic is about, but it shows a very long heel & a lot of flare. I've drawn on it to show where the toe is probably meant to be, and the arrow pointing to the frog/heel junction is probably somewhere in the realm of where the heel height 'should' be, if not shorter. But as you can see, the whole heel structure has dropped far lower, so that is something that will have to *grow* shorter with good hoof function, it can't just be lopped off.

Regarding your other hoof pics, without more info, it looks likely your trimmer has done a pretty reasonable job to me. It is hard to tell from those pics whether or not I might have done a little differently. Eg. balance, rolling the walls more to lessen the stress on the separated areas, for eg. It's impossible to tell from direct-on sole pics, how flat or concaved the sole may be, how far bevelled/rolled the walls are, etc. Side on sole pics, on an angle, and also sighting down from the heels but on an angle showing the sole as well would help give a better idea of those things.

Re lateral balance, yes, it's obviously off, but if they were imbalanced in the first place, the trimmer *may* have done the best they could with it. Eg. I use the sole plane and 'colateral groove' depth as 2 of my indicators of balance/length, etc, and if for eg. lateral cartilages have dropped lower in one side due to the way the horse has been travelling, well you don't just want to cut that side down just to match the length of the other, and may be left with 'imbalanced' hooves until they can *grow* healthier.

That said, in your pic 'Sole, back right' it appears that the left side heel could be longer & more forward than the other side, in relation to the sole plane & colateral grooves. It's unclear whether if that's the case, it would be better to take down the longer side, or whether the other side should have been left that length. As for your horse's frogs now on the ground, yes, that is the way horses *generally* 'should' be, depending on the terrain they work on. BUT if your horse has weak heels, it can be beneficial not to force them into ground contact by trimming straight away - eg. leave heels a little longer, use frog support pads for *comfortable* stimulation instead for a while - because if they are too sensitive, the horse is going to tippy toe & stay off them regardless how 'correct' the angles & lengths of the trim may be.

In this pic, you can also see the ring of stretched lamellar material at the toe and I think you would find(can't say anything definite from just a few pics) the inside ring - about 1" or so from point of frog - is the outside edge of the sole and outside that line is lamellar wedge. In that case, I would *possibly* bevel/roll those toes a bit further back, which may change the look/angle & make them look a bit less 'like fronts'. I think that's what you're getting at about fronts & backs looking the same? Healthy back feet should be slightly steeper than fronts & a bit more oval, while fronts are rounder. That's the only real difference. I don't understand your comment about lack of breakover - the trimmer has rolled the feet right the way round rather well. Perhaps your previous farrier squared or backed up the toes or some such?
 

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#87 ·
I have one question real quick, I noticed it on the pictures before, but I want to get your opinion in case it is the angles the pictures are taken at. On all four feet, from the front view angle, the hairline and coronet seems angled up towards the inside - which to me would signify that the hooves have not been being trimmed balanced for quite some time. I'm no expert, by any means, but when I was first learning about trimming I was told by the local amish farrier this was something to watch closely for as the side-to side not being balanced can lead to calcification and sidebone (which Freyja already had a mild case of in one hind - stabilized now).

Overall I would say the trimmer did an okay job. I would personally like to see a little more taken off the toe, and breakover brought back into all that excess lamellar wedge she has.

From the heel views I think it looks pretty good, other than still seeming a bit longer on the inside of each hoof - the location of the heel bulbs seem to confirm that as well.

I certainly think it's a decent trim. I probably would have been ever so slightly more aggressive, but to err on the side of caution is never a bad thing.

If your trimmer is going to be pretty conservative, as it appears she is, I'd want to aim for more frequent trimmings - probably every 4 weeks. At this rate, and with this type of trimming, going every 6 weeks will keep the problems from getting any worse, but it wont correct them very well, either. It will just maintain. JMO though.
 
#88 ·
Ahh, yes, M2P, that belled shape was mentioned in the earlier pictures. It is something that will have to grow out to be straight, yes?

Indy, you're right. I had kind of noticed that before, but never thought much of it. Until now, of course, lol. I definitely want to avoid sidebone. Eek. I will make sure to address that on the next trim.

I see what you're saying about maintaining, and will also bring it up on the next trim.

I was slightly surprised to see a lack of a breakover on both girls, my first [crazy] farrier had always done it so it's weird for them not to have a roll.

I've given up on posting Gracie's pictures. Not only is HF continuing to lose my posts, I also forgot to take a few, and accidentally deleted another. I'll just post this one that I'm concerned about.

She has a "swoop" from heel to toe on her front left hoof.

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#90 ·
Heres my opion on this horses hoofs iam no expert either but her heels look very long and under run. Her toes are also very long,its also looks like this horse has thrush wich needs to be treated.Just my two cents worth i had a horse with under run heels so i do know what it looks like.spirit88
 
#94 ·
Ricci, I am no hoof expert so I can't even comment on the hooves.

I did notice that the BT said that it was a nutritional issue 4 months ago. I had to go back and look but Ricci did colic on 11/9.

I am an information junkie and was wondering if any of you hoof expert types can tell me...will a horse develop 'rings' from a bad colic?
 
#96 ·
Ricci, I am no hoof expert so I can't even comment on the hooves.

I did notice that the BT said that it was a nutritional issue 4 months ago. I had to go back and look but Ricci did colic on 11/9.
Which is probably the reason.

And stress or change can cause rings.



Her fronts do not match her pastern angles. Long toes.
 
#95 ·
Horses can develop those rings from poor diet, poor health, etc...so really, they are a good indicator that something in their bodies is not quite right...there is a gelding at the place I board that has a bunch of those; when he got to this place, he was in terrible condition :(
 
#97 ·
The first image is from the original post on 12/13. Would that really only be a month of growth from the colic?

It is entirely likely it was her getting too much sugar in the grass or some such, but you bring up an excellent point. I'll talk to the BT about it and show her the picture. I will also talk to her about matching the angle. As Indy said, she may just be conservative in bringing about these changes.
 
#98 ·
The first image is from the original post on 12/13. Would that really only be a month of growth from the colic?

Chances are the problems from feed had been building quite a long time, before it resulted in the colic episode - by the time the colic hit, damage had already been done as far as the feet were concerned. (I think this is also what AB was getting at.) The colic was just the tail end of it - so basically think of needing at LEAST 6 or 8 months of growth from the last major episode - the colic, in this case - before the feet can really be recovered from what has resulted - and potentially longer.
 
#101 ·
The long and short of it, rings on feet can be caused by any number of things. It does not have to be something catastrophic.
Too wet in turn out. Too dry in turn out. Too much of something or not enough of something, etc.
 
#104 ·
Agree that it can be a range of things, but it is from *internal* factors, not too wet turn out & certainly not too dry, which I don't believe is really possible with animals evolved for semi arid environs.
 
#105 ·
My point on the too wet and too dry is that if the wet (or dry) environment is causing the horse stress it can lead to hoof rings.

Stress leads to eating issues.....

Not being able to walk around easily in deep mud or not being able to walk around easily because the rock hard ground can easily lead to an issue that can cause rings.
 
#106 ·
I get you now & agree that stress can lead to lami, but not so sure about the hard/boggy ground comment - it is more about too much of something, rather than too little, altho if the horse was already IR or on starchy diet & forced to go hungry due to inability to move, that could well do it(don't think that's a likely scenario tho). I'm just not convinced that 'anything' can lead to hoof rings, such as some believe. Sorry to be so nit-picky about specifics!!
 
#107 ·
I had the trimmer out again today. I talked to her about the toe still seeming a bit long and not matching her pastern angle. She said it was to be expected because she is growing a new angle, and that it's going to look ugly until the belled part grows put, which makes sense to me. Does it also make sense to the hoof experts on here?

Also, Ricci has been sound the majority of the six weeks. I have been riding her the last two weeks, the last week consistently. She came up lame two days ago, but it wasn't accompanied by any swelling in her legs, so I don't think the pain has been going on so long as to cause that. The BT said that suggests we are doing something right. She would like to go six weeks again, as she didn't see a lot of growth in general, but if she comes up lame right before she comes out again, we will cut her back to five weeks. Sound reasonable?

And some pictures, just because I'd like to keep this going as at least a photo journal for me.

Front view of left front.


Side, left front.


Sole, left front.


Heel, left front.


Front view, right front.


Heel, right front. Bad angle, sorry. =\


Side, right front.
 
#108 ·
OP,
Have read through all this and cannot find where hoof testers have been used to determine specific area of pain in the foot.:? Until you find out exactly what's going on, it will be dificult to treat.

As for flares, new growth follows old. If fares aren't removed completely and foot isn't balanced, then you will always be fighting them.

Rings/ridges in the feet could be from heel pain or sub-clinical/mild laminitis. The fact that they get wider at the heel sugests pain/soreness rather than nutrition.

I would also recommend treating the central sulcus, thrush or not. If very deep, it can lead to caudle hoof pain/sorness.

Asfor last photos, toes need backed up more.
 
#110 ·
Hi,

With only those pics to go on it's hard to really tell how much the toes are bevelled, length of heels, etc. It does appear, from the hooves on the ground pics that they have been bevelled/rolled to relieve some ground pressure, at least on concrete(which unless the horse lives/works on that, doesn't necessarily count for too much), but I too don't think it is not far enough, especially at the toe, to relieve forces that will exacerbate separation & flaring. There is no need for getting rid of the flares entirely from above, but they do need to be addressed with regard to ground surface. If you look at the solar view, there is a fair proportion of foot out in front of the frog apex, indicating a bit of 'stretching'.

Other points I got from the pics are; the front feet look a bit imbalanced, being longer medially. Of course without further info not sure whether this should be just immediately 'corrected' with trimming, whether it's the camera angle, etc... And of the solar shots again, it does appear that little wall thickness has been rolled(I'd probably take it right back to the white line around the toe region) and it looks like the quarters & heels could possibly be lowered a tad more. Also in the lateral pics, it seems that she still has a bit underslung heels, but IME that will likely resolve itself when the toes are backed/bevellled effectively.

I would also trim/treat that crack on the right front toe which looks like it may also be infected.

Have read through all this and cannot find where hoof testers have been used to determine specific area of pain in the foot.:???: Until you find out exactly what's going on, it will be dificult to treat.....
Rings/ridges in the feet could be from heel pain or sub-clinical/mild laminitis. The fact that they get wider at the heel sugests pain/soreness rather than nutrition.
BNT, I appreciate that hoof testers can come in handy, but if you're implying that they are at all necessary to know what's going on etc, I disagree. I just don't think they're anywhere near accurate enough to say anything exacting.

Regarding ridges/rings, I agree with most of your above comment, except the bit about wider at the heel suggesting just heel pain rather than lami. Interested to learn why you think this, when it is generally held that heels of laminitics(particularly those with 'rotation') appear to often grow quicker at the heel & have more buckling/tighter rings at the toe. I do agree though, that it's not just laminitics, as horses with heel sensitivity tend to land on their toes, stressing them more & heels less.
 
#114 ·
Hi,
BNT, I appreciate that hoof testers can come in handy, but if you're implying that they are at all necessary to know what's going on etc, I disagree. I just don't think they're anywhere near accurate enough to say anything exacting.
I stated that I hadn't seen mention of their use. I never said they were an exact science, though in the hands of a professional they can be quite acurate. :wink:

Regarding ridges/rings, I agree with most of your above comment, except the bit about wider at the heel suggesting just heel pain rather than lami.
You may want to do more than just skim through the posts.:oops: I said either/or.

Interested to learn why you think this, when it is generally held that heels of laminitics(particularly those with 'rotation') appear to often grow quicker at the heel & have more buckling/tighter rings at the toe.
I don't think this but aparently you think I do.:?

I do agree though, that it's not just laminitics, as horses with heel sensitivity tend to land on their toes, stressing them more & heels less.
Can a toe first landing not be an indication of caudle foot pain?
 
#111 ·
So Loosie, are you saying the toe still should be taken back? Is there any merit to her reasoning that the foot just has to grow out? Her worry about rasping off the flare was that it would completely demolish her hoof wall and leave her no protection.

By saying it needs to be addressed on the ground surface, would that mean almost... rounding out the bottom? I don't know how to explain it, but basically, the ground surface would be smaller than what the wall is. Does that make sense?

Also, that "crack" is basically non-existent, you couldn't fit a needle in it. I can bring it up next time, but it's more a slight groove accented by the rasped toe.

On thrush, she gets treated with Thrush Buster weekly.

On hoof testers, we've used them a few times but never gave any definitive type of answer.

Whatever this BT is doing seems to be helping. She hasn't had any swelling in her legs this period. This is the longest amount of time since this started that she has been "on" again, you know?

I definitely appreciate the input, and I did make sure to bring up all the mentioned concerns. I love being able to bounce all this stuff off you guys. =]
 
#117 ·
So Loosie, are you saying the toe still should be taken back? Is there any merit to her reasoning that the foot just has to grow out? Her worry about rasping off the flare was that it would completely demolish her hoof wall and leave her no protection.
I think so & others have agreed. Of course, having only the few photos to go on... I understand her worry, but it depends how it's done. As they say a picture tells... I've attached a diagram that will hopefully better explain.

By saying it needs to be addressed on the ground surface, would that mean almost... rounding out the bottom? I don't know how to explain it, but basically, the ground surface would be smaller than what the wall is. Does that make sense?
Yes, I think you get it:? Basically, the breakover(or foot print, if you like) should be back much closer to where it should be, but the bulk of the wall is still there to provide protection. Does the diagram make sense in this way?

Also, that "crack" is basically non-existent, you couldn't fit a needle in it. I can bring it up next time, but it's more a slight groove accented by the rasped toe.
Of course pics can be misleading, but it looks far from non-existent to me. It does look like a hairline crack though - it's not wide open at all, so it seems there is likely little stress on the wall at that point, which is good, but I think it's perpetuated by infection and won't go away without being treated properly - perhaps cutting it out, perhaps just regular soaking will allow it to grow out.

On thrush, she gets treated with Thrush Buster weekly.
IMO I think it's important to treat severe cases aggressively, but as a general thing, I don't like to use chemicals on the frog. I generally opt for tea tree oil or ACV. Having said that, I don't know what's in Thrush Buster or how 'heavy duty' it is either.

I definitely appreciate the input, and I did make sure to bring up all the mentioned concerns. I love being able to bounce all this stuff off you guys. =]
Great! That's what we're here for - bouncing ideas & opinions off eachother in order to learn more. But don't ever forget that we don't have the whole picture, and even if we do(as your trimmer may, being hands on), we've all got our own opinions based on our experiences & studies, so don't take anyone's word for it, just consider it all to further your understanding so you can better make your own informed opinions. (I know that's stating the obvious to you, but I think it's worth reiterating!:wink:)

I will read the article, but just want to point out that while laminitis is on the table, neither farrier, trimmer or vet that has seen her thinks this is a laminitis issue, nor a navicular one.
I think it depends on definitions & degree so much as to what people see & call. You could call all ridges or deviations of the hoof wall from P3 'laminitis'. You could call all heel sensitivity 'NS', as 'N.syndrome' (as opposed to N.disease) basically just means unexplained caudal pain. As for clinical diagnosis, people often tend to only lable the chronic or acute cases - eg. bounding pulse & stance, high degree of rotation, bone changes, etc. Not sure how much this is about vet's legalities of diagnosing(eg. 'sub clinical', etc), but over here at least, it's only vets who are legally allowed to give diagnosis at all - farriers etc are not supposed to, so legalities also may come into what may or may not be said.

BTW ILOVEMYHORSE, was there more to that article that I missed? It didn't appear to say much.
 
#115 ·
this is a very interesting thread. i am in no way a hoof expert, but i think your farrier or barefoot trimmer (whoever or whatever you'd like to call them haha) could be more aggressive in the management of this horse's hooves. imo, her heels are very underrun and her toe is too long still. it looks like her new hoof growth is going in the right direction, but if the old growth isn't properly addressed the new stuff is going to end up growing out in the same manner. i also think your other horse's hooves need to be addressed almost more so than this mare's. again, just imo.
 
#118 ·
Thrushbuster ingrediants...

water, isopropanal, formalin, P.V.P. iodine complex, gentian violet

Ive gotten it on my skin many times and in my ragged cuticales lol...It stings a bit but it flat out works and I have not noticed that it destroys healthy tissue either and Ive cleared alot of deep thrush cases with it now.

I, however, do use it much more often than the bottle says on bad cases. Where I live, it is very wet alot of times. I tend to use it daily or every other day on bad cases and pack the succulous with a TB soaked cotton ball if there is a crevace.

I tout its benefits often because it was the ONLY product that cleared up a very nasty puss-y frog infection on a founder horse I rehabbed. Over night also. I had soaked and soaked in a variety of solutions...I had used Bannixx, petes goo and a myriad of other things trying to get the infection gone. 1 application of TB with a cotton ball cleared it up. I didnt even believe it when I picked the cotton ball out. That sold me.

I use it exclusively now as a topical treatment and have not yet been let down when used daily or every other day on bad cases.
 
#119 ·
Thrushbuster ingrediants...
water, isopropanal, formalin, P.V.P. iodine complex, gentian violet
Thanks for that. Top ingredient's water?:? Yeah, I would class it as one of the 'heavy guns' then, being that it includes formalin, iodine & gentian violet, so would use it very judiciously, because those ingredients at least do indeed necrotise tissue. Actually I was surprised to hear when I had kids & wanted 'fairy paint' that they no longer sell gentian violet in Australia for that any more, because of it's toxicity!:shock: Not sure if that was about it being pretty colours for kids & pretty colours are more attractive to drink tho:lol:

Recently learned more about sensors & scent glands in the horse's frogs, which has given me cause to further revise my idea about using chemicals & knives on frogs & be even more conservative in my treatment than I thought I was before...
 
#120 ·
I used the Thrush Buster twice when they were really bad, and it cleared up completely. Now I only use it once a week or when it looks particularly thrushy again. It comes in a little 8oz bottle for a whopping $18 but it works, and you don't need much.

I'll examine that "crack" a little more carefully today. Would you soak it just Epsom salt then?

Also, you forgot the diagram, Loosie. =]

Legally, I know a farrier cannot diagnose laminitis or navicular, but they can still say they think it may be a problem and I should have the vet out. In the same way I can say, "I think your horse is colicking, you should call the vet." That is what I mean, they don't think it is something the vet necessarily needs to be brought in for any diagnosis.

That said, my vet will be re-evaluating and possibly take another set of X-rays when I have him out for teeth in the next couple months.

And for clarification purposes, the first two sets of pictures were from a farriers work. The last two sets were from a barefoot trimmer's work. They are two separate people, doing two separate things. I'm not will-nilly throwing out "trimmer" or "farrier" and it would be best to consider their names "Trimmer" and "Farrier." =]

I do agree that the article was very vague, I didn't get anything from it that I didn't already know.

I'd like to see the diagram Loosie has, but I think I am going to monitor via these pictures if her foot will grow the "bell" out. Perhaps I will try to find a way to measure. Letting it grow out is what is making the most sense to me, so I think I'll give that a shot before I have the trimmer make her hoofprint smaller.

Thanks again, everyone!
 
#123 ·
She seems to be trimmed at the wrong angle. The first picture shows her hoof is long in the toe and short in the heel. This puts undue pressure on the navicular bone. She needs the angle changed to a more upright position. It will probably take more than one trimming to see any improvement. There does seem to be a little thrush in the hoof. A little copper naphthenate (Coppertox) should clear that right up. I hope she gets better.
 
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