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Calling all hoof experts. Loosie? Ricci's hoof saga.

29K views 151 replies 29 participants last post by  loosie 
#1 ·
Some of you may remember my threads about my mare, Ricci and her foot/leg problems. Basically, her feet hurt, causing strain on her tendons in the back of her front legs and [we assume] in the soft tissue of her feet. I have had my vet out. Approximately 9 months ago, he took x-rays to rule out navicular, and all looked normal. He did a nerve block just above her foot, and she was moving better, therefore showing the problem is in her foot.

Now the point of this thread is about my current farrier and possibly switching to a new one. I have been using this farrier since the problem occurred. He came vet recommended. First, he put natural balance shoes on her. They seemed to help at first and then the second time around, I saw it wasn't helping. So we have been doing just trims. I put her on a strict 6-week schedule, but that seemed too long, and went to a 5-week schedule. She is due this week.

I had a barefoot trimmer come out this afternoon and give me a consult. She said the bubbly wave she has going on is indication that she is growing an angle that is not consistent with the trim she has been getting. She said her quarters were left too wide, and she has actually grown too much heel. Everything she said made sense, and Ricci obviously needs a change. If my current farrier was working, I would see evidence of some kind of improvement, right?

In my attempt to keep this post from being too ridiculously long, I may have left some things out, so please ask me if you have any questions. These pictures were taken today of her left front foot, the one that was bothering her the most to begin with.

Here, you can see how her hoof is trying to grow straight down, but is flaring out.


Here, you can see how it flares out.


And from underneath, you can see a faint ridge in her toe, that the BT said was from keeping her toe too long, except she said it in fancier words. Basically, I understood it like the white line or whatever it's called should be much closer to that ridge.


What do you think? Can you tell me anything from these pictures, or give me any suggestions? I'll take another picture of her heel to show how much she has tonight. Thank you so much for any and all input.
 
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#124 ·
You should have kept reading, I posted pictures of every trim after that until May. =]

She's sound right now, she is being seen by a barefoot trimmer every 4 weeks until the last bit of "old" hoof is gone. She's got about two or three more trims left before her feet will look good, but she's certainly improved.
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#129 ·
That's fine, it's a long thread. I plan to post progress pictures again after her trim next week. =]
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Look forward to the update ricci!
 
#130 ·
*UPDATE*

I had my trimmer out this morning and got new pictures.

Side-view, right front.


Front view, right front.


Sole, right front.


Heel, right front.


Side, left front. [My hand is there because her other hoof was making this one look wonky, lol.]


Front, front left.


Sole, front left.


Heel, front left.


And just one side view of her back left. If you'd like more, just ask and I'll be happy to oblige. =]


And because she's pretty.
 
#133 ·
Riccil0ve -- it doesn't have to be wet to have thrush. It is possible that your horse has some, but it's hard to see that from the pic for sure. A nice non-invasive "treatment" is to wash with lysol and water, rinse and apply anti-fungal cream mixed with polysporin and zinc cream. The same treatment would be a good idea on those cracks.

As for the trim, the big thing I noticed was the unevenness of the fronts. Are the backs the same? If you look at her fronts from the front :)D) and draw a line across her coronet, you will see that her coronet slopes downward to the outside on both. It could be that she wears her feet that way and the trimmer is not recognizing it when working, therefore just taking the same amount off both quarters. It's important to assess the trim after to catch things like this. The front heels do look even, so it's likely the quarters and toe that are out. The last pic show her turning, so it's hard to see if she walks / stands unevenly. Even if she did, I'm not sure I would be the one to assess that anyway. I'm not very good at conformation.

All that said, much improvement! :) She is a happier horse for sure.
 
#134 ·
NorthernMama - I also use the Lysol and water solution for soaking. However, I recommended it on another thread and someone else pointed out that the bottle says it kills 99.9% of bacteria and they felt that it was too harsh. Pete Ramey recommends it on his website and my barefoot trimmer also recommends it. She said that it does not kill off the good bacteria, but she did not give me anything to back that up. It has worked great for me and I will continue to use it. I was just wondering if you had heard the same thing about killing the bad bacteria and not the good?
 
#135 ·
I realize that, manure build-up can cause thrush too. But it's not thrush in the photos, it's mud. =]

The photo of her moving is just because she's pretty, I don't expect anyone to critique that.

I did notice that, about the coronet band. I'll bring it up on the next appointment [4 weeks].
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#136 ·
Sooo much better! ...Not that that would have been difficult, how they were... You're trimmer looks to be doing a decent job, based on what can be told from these pics.

Yeah, it doesn't look to me like her frogs are very thrushy, if at all, but given that they're not yet that healthy, I'd be using something mild regularly as a preventative measure at least. I would however get more serious with those toe cracks, as I'd suspect that the front one at least(can't see back in any detail) probably has infection in it, which can perpetuate the crack despite good trimming and can get worse if not treated. I'd be inclined to excavate it & soak in a thrush treatment. I imagine it's not that deep at all past an inch or so up.

Re lysol(RatherBeRiding), I'm not familiar with that, but is it a mouthwash or some such?? Yeah, my feeling about antibacterials are that they kill bacteria, not that they find out which ones are considered 'good' or not:lol:. I think the thing with any strong 'killer' is that they should be used when necessary & not long term. Also, if it's only an antibacterial, it may do nothing for fungal infection, of which thrush can often be a combo. Therefore I go for a broad spectrum approach.

She still has a fair bit of stretching at the toe & toe quarters, which I'd probably back up/stronger 'roll' further. I've marked a line on your lateral view pic to indicate - looks like the flaring starts about the middle of your second finger in that pic, and above that point is the plane the toe wall 'wants' to be on - parallel with P3. The sole pic I marked shows approx where I'd 'back up/strong roll to. The horizontal lines on the sole pic indicate the widest part of the foot, back of the heel, which is where I got the idea of the 'breakover' area around the toe. See e-hoofcare.com for more info on that. The blue vertical lines on that pic indicate where I might 'scoop' or roll the quarters a bit more.

In the front on pics, it appears there's a fair bit of m/l imbalance(Of course, may just be the angle of the pix). Both feet look longer on the inside. The hoof walls appear straighter, more upright on the inside, which has led to more height & flaring on the outside. This is common & it may well have been that way long term, so may need to be kept in check so it can be *allowed* to gradually change, or at least not be under more pressure, rather than attempting to force any changes by just trimming more inside or whatever. I would probably be inclined to 'roll' the inside toe quarters more, to help this, as it appears, from what can be seen, that there is little if any to come off from the ground surface - they appear balanced in relation to the sole plane? I've rotated the pic & drawn a line across the hairline & one down the grain of the wall to indicate where I'm getting the idea of imbalance from.
 

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#137 ·
Yay, Loosie!!

My farrier gave me a great solution for that deep crevice in her frog on her front left. She was getting really tender and I think it was super thrushy in there. But anyway, she said to mix athlete's foot cream and triple antibiotic ointment +pain and it cleared it right up. Every few days and every wet day, I also put it along her frog and she hasn't had any thrush since. =]

The being longer on the inside is I think typical for her. It is not the angle of the picture. I took them with my iPhone and had the bottom flat on the ground for all the picture. Next time my trimmer comes out, I'll see if she can make time to analyze her again and figure out where to go from here. But as you said, there is definitely drastic improvement!

On the side view, there's still a little "bell" from the old hoof that's growing out. I forgot to talk to her about relieving the wall like that diagram you posted at the top of the last page. :oops: But either way, there doesn't seem to be enough that's really affecting her movement like it was. I'll try to remember to point it out this time.

I will also talk to her about rolling her toe and quarters. I can understand rolling the toe, and mostly understand about rolling the inside to balance her hoof out, but why the outside? Just to make it even so you aren't just rolling 3/4 of the foot?

Shoot, there was one more thing I wanted to address...

Oh, the cracks in her wall. Is there any way for me to shove stuff in there? I can use the TAO and athlete's foot cream if I could get it in there. I can barely run my fingernail in it. I can use ACV and stretch her leg all the way out in front of her and pour it on, would that work? Those cracks have been there for awhile, and I would much prefer them gone. Will I have to wait for her next appointment and have my trimmer dig in them a bit?

And just so everyone knows, I plan to stick with every 4 weeks until that last "bell" of old hoof is long gone and then re-consider moving back to 6 weeks. My trimmer is going to help me measure and fit for hoof boots next appointment too. =D
 
#138 ·
I will also talk to her about rolling her toe and quarters. I can understand rolling the toe, and mostly understand about rolling the inside to balance her hoof out, but why the outside? Just to make it even so you aren't just rolling 3/4 of the foot?
Because the outside toe quarters(front sect of quarters, sides of toe area) are flared too. Hard to tell, but it appears there may be more stretching at the toe quarters than at the middle of the toes.

Oh, the cracks in her wall. Is there any way for me to shove stuff in there? ... I can barely run my fingernail in it. ...have my trimmer dig in them a bit?
Yes, I can see they're not open cracks, which is why I think without 'excavating', it would be impossible for you to 'shove stuff up there':lol: effectively. That's why I suggest soaking - at least with a good half hr soak, it'll get in a fair way. Yes, IMO your trimmer needs to open them up & dig out the infected area, to some degree at least. Once they're open, while soaking is still most effective IMO, you can often get away with scrubbing them with copper sulphate or some such. Even packing them with Manuka honey can be very effective.
 
#141 ·
loosie - Lysol is just an all purpose household cleaner. It has been recommended by my barefoot trimmer and Pete Ramey, who I think are both credible sources, but neither say how or why it works. I recommended it on another post but when another poster questioned it, I could not back it up. When I saw that NorthernMama had used it, I was hoping that she had heard the same things about it that I had.

I try really hard to keep my mouth shut on this Forum and only post something that I know for a fact is true or that worked for me. Even though the Lysol has worked well for me with no ill effects, I would like to be able to back up my claim and not recommend something that my be harmful in the long run, regardless of who recommended it to me.

I LOVE your hoof critiques!! You have a great way of explaining things. I trim my own horses, but have a trimmer out once a year to make sure that I am still doing things correctly.
 
#142 ·
Re: Lysol
I would not use lysol for soaking except where there is a problem that merits getting "right up in there," however for washing and then rinsing off afterwards I see no problem and it's the first effective wash that works for me. I have tried Sunlight dish soap, but it wasn't as effective. I don't think it's going to kill all the good bacteria to such a degree to cause a problem because I wash with Lysol diluted in water (about 25:75), then rinse. Allow to dry and apply Polysporin, Athlete's foot cream and Zinc cream mix. The amount of good bacteria that may be destroyed by that Lysol, I'm sure reproduce very quickly. I use the wash only once a week if I suspect something may be coming on, not at all if there is no problem, and daily if thrushy.

"Lysol kills 99.9% of all germs." as per the bottle. Also as per the bottle though, to disinfect, let stand for 10 minutes. To sanitize, let stand for 30 minutes. As I said, I don't use it as a soak unless necessary. I don't think a wash kills everything by a long shot. As a note, I tried PineSol, but it doesn't seem to work as well.
 
#143 ·
Thanks NorthernMama! I do always dilute it and my trimmer had recommended it for soaking to get rid of thrush and white line. It did take care of my thrush problem very quickly, but I check my horses daily, so the problem was not out of control. If I have any other problems, I will look into the creams that you recommended. Thanks again for the input!
 
#144 ·
I use thrushbuster in those superficial wall cracks till they grow out. It is liquid enough to really get down in deep and kill the nasties that are weakening the wall. I guarentee there is a fungus at play in that crack and was the first thing I thought seeing the picture.

I had one client's mare grow a huge fissue in about 6 weeks last year after having a superifical looking crack like that for months that I tried to tell him to treat more regularly. Thrushbuster in it once or twice a week killed it and it grew out fast after that but it was almost 1/2 an inche wide by then.

Keep an eye on those cracks that come from the outside wall and start growing under the layers. Do not be nice to them. Use something that will kill the nasties and keep using it till the crack is gone. TB has worked very well here in our temperate rainforest.

Lysol is a great thrush soak and clean. Its a bit sudsy so it will scrub out black nasties really well and clean the foot. It isnt overly drying. Its meant for people to use with bare hands to scrub, disinfect and clean floors with. I have had the best results on stubborn thrush with using lysol about twice in a week and then using topicals. I only soak when its really bad thrush and needs a through cleaning. Usually 2 or 3 times does the trick. I have even splashed straight lysol on horses that wont stand in a bucket or I needed to treat fast. No problems doing it either way.
 
#146 ·
Just throwing it out there(don't know if it's been brought up before so forgive me)
When I talked to my vet about the little bit of white line my gelding has she said 50:50 Lysol water and betadine.15 minutes 2Xa week. I've done that as well as thrush buster and his thrush is nearly gone, white line too. I've been told by my trimmer that Lysol can burn the bottom of the hoof so I've stopped everyday just Lysol. I clean with an old toothbrush, let dry, apply thrushbuster once a week. Then about 2 days after that and everyother day I alternate just picking out and picking out then spraying with Lysol/betadine mixture.
I've stopped soaking. Thrushbuster 2x a week per farrier reccomended then Lysol/betadine sprays.
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#147 ·
Trinity - Thanks for the added info.

riccilOve- I personally would still go with the Lysol soak, but I would not mix it 50:50 Lysol to water. That seems harsh for a soak. I mix mine according to the bottle directions which is 1/4 cup per gallon of water. I have never had any indication that it has burned my horse, however, I do not let the mix touch the coronary band. Only use the yellow lysol, the brown colored lysol will burn your horse.
 
#148 ·
Riccil0ve, I would do a 10 minute lysol soak (not touching the coronary band as per RBR), but probably only two days in a row, then daily do a lysol wash, then rinse, and apply cream as per my earlier post. Especially if it's dry, IMO you just want to get the worst out. You could probably do a short lysol soak once a week if needed. No more than 10 minutes though for me. Actually, what I have done is scrub really, really well with the lysol, rinse with lysol (diluted), then putter around for 10 minutes before I go back and rinse it off. Not a true soak, but more than a scrub.

Oh, and I use a toothbrush to apply the cream, but a dollar store scrubbing brush for the lysol scrub.
 
#149 ·
I'm not sure, but I think it could be founder- you should ask the vet. I know that hosing down the horses hooves will help to decrease any pain she may be having. The capsule looks really long as was stated earlier, has she have any fever during the time she has had this? Was she trying to move the weight off her front feet (rearing lying down, ect.)? Horses with founder tend to do this. Heavily built horses are more prone to founder, but it is not limited to them. It almost always occurs in the front feet rather than the back due to weight distribution. You should definitely call the vet about it if you have not already.
 
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