Calling all hoof experts. Loosie? Ricci's hoof saga. - Page 5
 
 

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Calling all hoof experts. Loosie? Ricci's hoof saga.

This is a discussion on Calling all hoof experts. Loosie? Ricci's hoof saga. within the Hoof Care forums, part of the Horse Health category
  • "underslung" heel.
  • LAMINAR WEDGE HOOF

 
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    12-15-2010, 10:00 PM
  #41
Trained
Quote:
Originally Posted by kevinshorses    
I wouldn't blame the farrier too much. It's kind of a chicken and egg thing. Does the horses conformation effect the hoof or does the hoof effect the conformation? I think you could make very convincing arguments either way and it's immposible to tell from looking at a few pictures on the internet.
Oh just saw this & thought I'd say agree wholeheartedly. It's also not just about conformation, but trimming/lameness too. Eg. Who knows whether it was farrier error that led to the problems in the first place, or has prevented them getting better, or other factors such as diet & environment, etc. Likewise, just because certain conformation, angles, lengths, etc may be considered as 'ideal'(IMO more accurately 'normal average'), doesn't mean they should be just applied regardless. Eg. High/low heels, cutting 'straight' hooves onto 'bent' limbs, etc. Also trimming in any manner without considering other factors - environment, exercise, diet, treating infections.... - may be next to useless on it's own.
     
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    12-15-2010, 10:02 PM
  #42
Trained
Quote:
Originally Posted by kevinshorses    
I wouldn't blame the farrier too much. It's kind of a chicken and egg thing. Does the horses conformation effect the hoof or does the hoof effect the conformation? I think you could make very convincing arguments either way and it's immposible to tell from looking at a few pictures on the internet.
Oh just saw this & thought I'd say agree wholeheartedly. It's also not just about conformation, but trimming/lameness too. Eg. Who knows whether it was farrier error that led to the problems in the first place, or has prevented them getting better, or other factors such as diet & environment, etc. Likewise, just because certain conformation, angles, lengths, etc may be considered as 'ideal'(IMO more accurately 'normal average'), doesn't mean they should be just applied regardless. Eg. High/low heels, cutting 'straight' hooves onto 'bent' limbs, etc. Also trimming in any manner without considering other factors - environment, exercise, diet, treating infections.... - may be next to useless on it's own.

...Glad I only had time for a 'quick' reply! Seems I can write the leg off a horse as well as talk one off! Now gotta go, cos I'm due at someone's house for pony trimming!
     
    12-16-2010, 12:17 PM
  #43
Trained
Now I've only got time for a quick reply, lol.

Ricci was in pretty regular, steady work. In fact, she was worked pretty hard until this whole thing came up. I started her up again on a biotin supplement, and I'll be sure to go buy some thrush stuff. I'll also try to pay more attention to whether she lands heel first or toe first. I will get more pictures of her heel, and if my farrier trims her tomorrow, I will get more pictures.
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    12-16-2010, 05:08 PM
  #44
Foal
The uneven growth that looks like uneven rings growing out are usually from mild founder
     
    12-16-2010, 07:00 PM
  #45
dee
Started
Dancer's feet were really flared when I first got her. They looked like big ol' bells. I also noticed that she walked toe first. We've had her about 1-1/2 years, and her feet look normal. Farrier said she had been very poorly trimmed before, and her feet were in really bad shape. It took a full year before her looked healthy. They are still huge, though. (Farrier says they give her a good foundation!)
     
    12-16-2010, 07:52 PM
  #46
Trained
I forgot to thank you, Loosie! I appreciate you dropping in! Finally, I have more pictures.

Her upright conformation.


The amount of heel on her front hoof, the same hoof in all the other pictures.


The amount of heel on her back hoof, same side. This is much closer to "normal" heel on her front.


And then Keith came out. He said that the bubbly rings and the bell shape are normal, and that the amount of heel we had on her was good. He said that having so much heel after always having so little wouldn't cause her any discomfort. O_o But he said we could start lowering her heel if I wanted, and lower it he did. I'm concerned with how she will handle such a drastic drop, but maybe I'm over-reacting.

Side of hoof.


Sole.


Heel.


Front.

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    12-16-2010, 10:24 PM
  #47
Trained
Hi,

Yep, those ripples are due to (probably mild) laminitis - poss what people refer to as 'low grade'. Can't tell if there's anything above the bigger ring of a month or 2 ago, but looks like she's had ongoing, mild problems with it. Diet is SUCH an important factor, and especially as she is now not in work, it will be more so, to keep from feeding too much energy. Re biotin supplement, Biotin is but one of many nutrients that may be deficient/imbalanced in a horse's diet. However, if a horse gets adequate green forage - grass or alfalfa for eg - then it is likely to get enough biotin in it's diet without supplementing. It is apparently quite uncommon for horses to be deficient in it, although this is one nutrient that it doesn't hurt to over supply - excess is just excreted, wasted. Many other nutrients are just as bad to OD on as if they're deficient. Therefore I think a basic diet analysis and a good quality 'complete' supplement that fits your horses situation & diet is a good idea.

Afraid with the angle of the pics, can't really tell any more than the last as far as heel length, balance, etc. A pic sighting down squarely from the back, from heel to toe, along the sole plane would better show the heels, and a side-on solar pic, on a slight angle will better show sole depth & wall length in relation to the sole. Check out; Good Hoof Photos - How to take Good Hoof Photos

Quote:
And then Keith came out. He said that the bubbly rings and the bell shape are normal, and that the amount of heel we had on her was good. He said that having so much heel after always having so little wouldn't cause her any discomfort. O_o But he said we could start lowering her heel if I wanted, and lower it he did. I'm concerned with how she will handle such a drastic drop, but maybe I'm over-reacting.
Keith is the farrier? Yes, he's unfortunately right that 'bubbly rings and the bell shape' are indeed rather normal. That's not to say they're good though, just that these problems are so common they're often not recognised. As I said, can't really tell from the pics whether there's much too much heel(it's obvious there is some excess & that they're 'underslung' a bit), too much for this stage for her, whatever, but I would guess there's not too much to spare, for now at least. Don't understand where he's coming from as to comments about discomfort & so much/little heel. Also don't understand what you mean by 'normal heel for fronts' comment on the back foot pic? If he thought heel height was good, why did he say he'd start lowering it if you wanted? Again, the angle of the pic may be giving a false impression, but it looks as if he took little, certainly not 'drastic'. I think the main concern is about the strength of her heels/digital cushions, as to whether she'll be comfortable bare with lower heels. If she's not, padding her feet will be a good move for a bit.

As it seems the farrier has rasped just into the sole, this clean hoof shows what's going on a bit clearer(tho it's still just a pic that can be misleading). I've marked your 'after' pic with a line that shows where I think the edge of the sole is likely to be. I suspect the pink & yellow line/area is lamellar wedge. While I wouldn't make a practice of rasping/paring into the sole at all, he may have done this to see where he was - to see 'landmarks' I'm describing, for eg. I would likely(if what it seems is really going on) start the 'mustang roll' from somewhere in the realm of 1/4 to 1.2 inch outside that line, rather than what appears to be just taking the corners off. It also appears, from considering before & after shots, that this farrier may pare frog as a matter of course? I wouldn't advise this, and as with the sole, the frog shouldn't need much if any paring at all, except in the case of paring daggy thrushy bits & perhaps opening up central sulcus if contracted. Paring the frog removes the outer protective layer, as well as thinning it, so causes them to be more sensitive, prone to bruising and thrush.
Attached Images
File Type: jpg 1292542916.jpg (41.0 KB, 205 views)
     
    12-16-2010, 10:33 PM
  #48
Trained
Loosie is so much more knowledgeable there is really little to add. Personally, I would have been far more agressive on the roll all the way around and brought in that flaring.

Loosie what's the laminar wedge you mentioned?
     
    12-16-2010, 10:59 PM
  #49
Trained
Yeah, he definitely took a lot of her frog off. I'll look closely at the website you gave me on taking the pictures. He did take a fair amount off her heel. The problem I had talking to him was he just talked about what could be happening inside her foot, but not what he was doing or a course of action or anything. My vet will encourage me to follow along with his plans, but Keith is just kind of doing what I want. I don't like how fast he is. I'm sure he's just very busy and very seasoned in his work, but I feel like of he took an extra minute to look at her, he could see more of the imbalances and how both sides of her feet aren't symmetrical.

Sorry loosie, but your posts are way over my head, I'm having a hard time understanding all of it. You just know so much! I'll have to disect it all when I get a chance. I was hoping to get to the library and see if they had any books, as well as read up in the websites in your signature. I really want to understand what's going on.

When would you think is a good time to call in the barefoot trimmer I met with? When she's due or sooner? I was maybe planning on 4 weeks out, thoughts? I'm just not sure if I should have her out sooner to see the trim as it shows more than when she is due.

Sorry I'm so scatterbrained and I'm missing some things. This is all very overwhelming, I'm getting very worried for my poor girl. Oh, diet. She is out 24/7 on decent pasture, and is getting beet pulp and safechoice as far as grain, and alfalfa hay.
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    12-18-2010, 08:02 PM
  #50
Trained
Hi,

NM asked about lamellar wedge. This is keratin material the dermal laminae put out when they become weakened, to fill in what would otherwise become a gaping separation between wall & coffin bone - and what often does anyway, due to infection & mechanics. I think it is easiest if I attach a cross section pic to explain - the section in between the yellow lines in front of the coffin bone is lamellar wedge. *Please note, this is a rather severe eg & not suggesting your horse is anywhere near as bad as that!

Ricci, I'm sorry, I tried to keep it simple... sounds like I was still taking it for granted how much people generally understand. There's so much to it and best to study the theory for yourself, to understand what's going on. I know it seems daunting, but the basic principles are... well, rather basic. Of course you can keep learning as much more as you want to tho...

With regards to how often to trim, by the look of the untrimmed hoof pics, that is probably about right - 5 weeks, was it? You can always get it done at 3-4 weeks, so it's more a matter of keeping them in shape rather than them overgrowing at all, but I don't think that much growth will have any real effect on their health. Wouldn't leave them to get much longer than that in between trims though. Also, assuming they were trimmed in a balanced way - heels/quarters trimmed to the same length(from sole plane) to the toe, you can see that she's worn her toe short and is using her heels a lot less, allowing them to have overgrown while there's nothing to come off the toe. This is one indication that she will also benefit from heel protection/support in the form of pads or such, to enable her to comfortably use her heels more.

As for diet, the Safe Choice sounds OK on their site, but doesn't list ingredients. I'd consider changing it if it's got grain &/or molasses in it tho. It may be the decent pasture that she's just getting too much of. Perhaps restricting it/her with elec fencing or grazing muzzle may be a good move.
Attached Images
File Type: jpg lamellar wedge.jpg (38.0 KB, 193 views)
     

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