Can this be corrected? - Page 2
 
 

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Can this be corrected?

This is a discussion on Can this be corrected? within the Hoof Care forums, part of the Horse Health category
  • Dead sole live sole sensitive sole
  • Black lines in the hoof sole

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    01-25-2012, 05:46 PM
  #11
Trained
Is that where it should end up after we've grown out a new foot, or are you saying take it back to that spot next trim?

I ask because but there is currently no clear view of the water line or white line, so we have no clue where the hoof wall actually hits those areas. We hit white and stopped. That's a hard crusty layer of sole on there and blocking real view of the foot. It's starting to chip off on his low foot and the white line is closer to the outer edge of the hoof.

I do see how having that eventual shape would eliminate the flare on the outside and better balance the hoof, so I guess that's good that I'm starting to catch onto this hoof stuff.
     
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    01-26-2012, 01:03 AM
  #12
Yearling
This is a case where I would use my knife and do a good sole cleaning. I would probably only need to do this one time but I would do it in this case to expose the markers and the true sole plane so I could formulate a proper trim plan. Anything crusty and false would get taken so the markers of the foot show to do a proper trim.

It is pretty easy to tell dead sole from live. Dead sole will have little black "veins" or lines like spiderwebs kinda running in it and kinda be crumbly appearing sometimes. Live sole is waxy and clean with no lines in it. I clean till I just barely start to see waxy pop out a tiny tad and then stop and leave a little bit of "sock" on if you will.


Clean the rim and all crusty sole away and then retrim according to new visable markers. Never touching the sole is a misnomer when you are just starting barefoot since finding the true sole plane and markers are important to leveling the foot properly. There are times I might not do that but it depends.

IMO it is best to at least get to the visible markers of the foot, apply a correct trim and then pad, boot, sole guard or cast as needed while the horse adapts and grows a bit. Of course it all depends on the details as to exactly what is called for and if I do what I normally might do or do something else for that particular horse.
     
    01-26-2012, 07:28 PM
  #13
Trained
Thanks for the advice, but this is a TB who is dead sound 1 week after pulling his shoes for the first time. I'm not touching a thing!!

I am walking him on every possible surface I can find to encourage the dead sole to wear away on it's own. Once I can see the hoof wall and white line, we'll make the adjustments on the next trim.
     
    01-27-2012, 12:19 AM
  #14
Yearling
You may loose this soundness as the "fake" hoof shoe he has created under where the shoe was wears off or is trimmed away finally. It is temporary material tho and his soundness after it is gone depends on how healthy his foot actually is under that "hoof shoe".

I personally opt for true balance after finding the true sole plane and use a round or two of casting or sole guard typically in these situations. We have more tools now than the barefooters of the past and IMO never touching the sole is someone who doesnt have enough tools in his or her toolbox today. In the past, I would opt for soundness without boots over balance as you have here and gradually work forward from there, but now I know that it actually hinders the forward progress that can be made using different tools and going towards full balance and proper form up front.

JMO tho. You gotta do what you think is best for your horse.
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    01-27-2012, 12:26 PM
  #15
Trained
Oh I totally agree with you about losing the soundness. That's why I'm leaving it there for now. His low foot is flat as a pancake and his high foot is so high, no dead sole is sloughing off on it's own. My evil plan is to get him moving around as much as possible to encourage new healthy growth and sole before those hard things come off on their own. I figure I have about a month. Maybe by then pancake foot will have started to develop a little concave to it.
     
    01-29-2012, 05:35 PM
  #16
Trained
Quote:
Originally Posted by MyBoyPuck    
Is that where it should end up after we've grown out a new foot, or are you saying take it back to that spot next trim?
Next trim, so that over time, the hoof can become more balanced. Again I emphasis that precise measurements & such are only guides, as without more info, pref. Even an xray to see exactly where P3 is, it's no more than an experienced 'guesstimate' but the sole pic with extra white lines shows what I'm basing it on.

Basically hooves should be balanced according to the 'centre of articulation', which is the centre of the distal end of the second phalanx. While we don't have xray eyes, it has been found that this point is consistently above mid-frog, approximately 3/4" back from the apex. Other 'landmarks' for this point are the widest part of the foot & the anterior end of the bar, or bar crack. One source of information onto studies on that that you can look into is Equine Lameness Prevention Organization

So... The middle horizontal line marks the COA. The line across the heel - around the middle of the 'dimple' of the central sulcus - is where the rearmost weightbearing point of the heels should(ultimately) be. The hoof should be balanced anterio-posterial 50% in front & behind the COA, which takes us to where the vertical line ends at the toe - where my black line has marked the breakover. The short horizontal line in front of the COA is the same length as from the centre to the black 'breakover' line on the inside.

Quote:
I ask because but there is currently no clear view of the water line or white line, so we have no clue where the hoof wall actually hits those areas. We hit white and stopped. That's a hard crusty layer of sole on there and blocking real view of the foot. It's starting to chip off on his low foot and the white line is closer to the outer edge of the hoof.
Might have gotten the wrong idea, but if by 'we' you mean the professional trimmer, I'd like to think they have a lot more than just a clue' what they're seeing. While I *generally* think paring sole is unhelpful & unnecessary, agree with Trinity that a bit of excavating may be necessary, in order for you to correctly 'map' the foot & gauge balance. I suspect there'd be very little sole pared at worst anyway, for you to see what's what.

I suspect the 'hard crusty sole' may actually be lamellar material, which when the 'white line' is stretched can indeed be hard to distinguish from sole. The *true*(dermal) lamellar line is not close to the outer wall, but will be somewhere close to my black line. What you are taking for white line is likely the outer part of the laminae(epidermal) and what you're taking as sole may be 'lamellar wedge' - keratin that the dermal laminae have put out to fill the gap, which can be very hard to differentiate from sole material. That's one reason I think it is so important for the trimmer to understand balance in relation to the COA, or else they may be way off the mark.

Looking at the side-on pic, the white line is where I estimate to be parallel with the dorsal surface of P3 & the angle thfe toe wants to be on. I'm estimating that based on the hoof pastern axis and the top 2/3" or so of the hoof wall before it flares out, as this top part is likely to be still parallel or nearly.

Quote:
I do see how having that eventual shape would eliminate the flare on the outside and better balance the hoof,
Having the hooves bevelled in that way now is what will help relieve the laminae of leverage, to allow the flares to eventually grow out. It depends on the reason for any medial-lateral imbalance I reckon, as to whether it will be 'cured' or will be a constant thing that you just have to manage.

Quote:
Thanks for the advice, but this is a TB who is dead sound 1 week after pulling his shoes for the first time. I'm not touching a thing!!

I am walking him on every possible surface I can find to encourage the dead sole to wear away on it's own. Once I can see the hoof wall and white line, we'll make the adjustments on the next trim.
Of course it's important that the trimmer is confident of what they're doing before paring anything, so that's your call. While he may be 'dead sound'(oxymoron??) & that foot at least doesn't look terrible at all, it doesn't look great either & I'd suspect 'dead sound' may not last & I'd be inclined therefore to protect his feet or stay off harsh terrain for now. It doesn't actually look to me(again, only based on one sole pic...) that there is much dead sole to be exfoliated anyway and you may well be looking at the 'white line' now & not recognising it.

Quote:
Oh I totally agree with you about losing the soundness. That's why I'm leaving it there for now. His low foot is flat as a pancake and his high foot is so high, no dead sole is sloughing off on it's own. My evil plan is to get him moving around as much as possible to encourage new healthy growth and sole before those hard things come off on their own. I figure I have about a month. Maybe by then pancake foot will have started to develop a little concave to it.
IMO leaving too much hoof is not generally helpful & is often detrimental to soundness, even in the short term, so again I agree with Trinity, that I'd opt for removing the excess now & protecting his feet as necessary. - Short term gain, as with shoeing, can negatively effect long term soundness. I agree with you that generally speaking, the more movement the better, but protection is very important IMO - esp if the low foot is 'pancake flat', that indicates it's likely got precious little 'armour' beneath P3. I don't understand what you figure you have a month for? Generally I find that concavity doesn't *start* to develop in these sort of cases until *after* the flaring is relieved & the disconnected wall grown out. So on that note, the sooner you set him up to grow healthy walls, the sooner he'll start to develop healthier, thicker soles.
Attached Images
File Type: jpg r-solar-1-19-12.jpg (70.8 KB, 88 views)
File Type: jpg high-side-1-19-12.jpg (27.7 KB, 88 views)
     
    01-30-2012, 08:22 PM
  #17
Banned
I think for his first week out of shoes, you guys are doing well. You are staying proactive about his hoofcare and learning all you can. Lots of people with TB's just think "Oh he's got crappy TB feet, he'll never go barefoot!" and your boy is proving them all wrong.

While I agree that leaving too much can be detrimental but I think at this point, I wouldn't take much more without letting things develop a bit. If he's sound and happy, take a breath and recalculate your next move. His feet are still in the work in progress stage. Let him adjust and then go in for another piece.
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    01-31-2012, 12:53 AM
  #18
Trained
Might as well post pics of the low foot since both are involved. They're a bit dark, but that's all I've got. This foot shows that layer of whatever the heck that extra hard stuff is around the toe a little better. It's starting to chip off on its own. Those wrinkly scrunched up heel bulbs are driving me nuts. I can't wait to watch them spread out. Day 8, he's starting to show a few signs of sensitivity, but still moving freely around his paddock. Fingers crossed...
Attached Images
File Type: jpg low-side-1-19-12.jpg (33.3 KB, 81 views)
File Type: jpg left-front-1-19-12.jpg (38.6 KB, 80 views)
File Type: jpg left-heel-1-19-12.jpg (31.1 KB, 82 views)
File Type: jpg left-concave-1-19-12.jpg (41.1 KB, 82 views)
File Type: jpg l-solar-1-19-12.jpg (46.2 KB, 84 views)
     
    01-31-2012, 02:46 PM
  #19
Yearling
What is happening on this foot is that his break over is actually quite far forward of where it should be and the extra "rim" is actually exacerbating a broken back axis as well pulling the toe forward still with every step. It needs to be relieved. His foot is flat as a pancake also. At some point, this will need to be dealt with together. I prefer to deal with things up front and get it over with. I find the horse recovers much faster. Do you have a good trimmer helping you or are you on your own here? Sorry, I can't remember but having experienced help can really make a difference.

IMO, and Im not saying that if you don't do this, its wrong, just MO here and what experience tells me will forward this foot, I would trim the toe down and bevel it back to where it belongs (this will be almost to the inside of the rim that is present now) and get the bones in better alignment first and foremost. This will make him sore barefoot on anything rocky but it is only a symptom of what is already in the foot and jsut being masked by this rim of extra buildup.

Knowing that, I would then probably apply sole guard and then cast the foot over the sole guard so it is supported everywhere promoting the growth of concavity with the breakover in its proper place. Leave it on for 3 or 4 weeks and then see what is what.

Either way, the angle needs to be dealt with at some point to progress this rehab which means bringing the toe down (just getting rid of the buildup here, never into live sole) and then getting breakover back and supporting the heels/frog area to remove the forward flare and pull while supporting the whole foot till it grows in better aligned.
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    01-31-2012, 04:43 PM
  #20
Banned
Trinity, I totally see what you are saying but this boy is FRESH out of shoes. He's flat footed and contracted from long term rims. I always prefer the cautious side...I think that is what her trimmer is taking. Get the shoes off, relieve the quarters, bevel around and let him settle into his new bare feet.
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