Critique this trim - Page 2 - The Horse Forum
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post #11 of 23 Old 08-13-2013, 11:52 PM
Green Broke
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Wares, my first cut out of a sole (or last) tells me if I need to sharpen my knife before I continue. A dull knife will take out chunks/divets like so..and it just makes the farrier look bad for not taking care of his/her tools of the trade.

Atleast, I think that's what you were asking, lol.

But, looking again..They didn't even knife out the sole where I'd expect it to be knifed out if they were going for artificial concavity (totally different to what I was trying to explain when I mentioned adding a smooth concavity to help the hoof out a bit). It seems to be deepest right in the center between the wall and the frog, not closest to the frog.

What I was saying by adding a bit more concavity while smoothing it out is how I got Alahna back to being sound in the pasture and not gimping when the farrier I was using did a hack job. I took out the bruised sole enough that it wasn't extremely too thin, but it was keeping that sole off the ground enough that the small rocks in the pasture didn't continue to bruise an already terribly bruised foot. I guess it depends on your pastures as to if you can do that or not to give some sort of relief, especially to a front foot that is forced to bare weight, as opposed to a hind that they can cock up and get some relief for a bit. My explanation if what I meant by adding some more concavity while smoothing it out, not sure if it reads like I intend it to though, lol.

I bet if you carve a bit more sole out that there'll be a substantial bruise within 2 days of the trimming unless your footing is all soft with no rocks or hard ground at all.
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post #12 of 23 Old 08-14-2013, 08:38 AM Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by waresbear View Post
Were you there when the farrier trimmed these hooves? I would like to know how they made those dents in the sole? With a hoof knife, that's is a horrible hack job there.
No, but I was the last time she did it. She used her hoof knife and, well, kinda took bits and pieces off.

Iseul, well, the sole(before this trim) was at just about the same height as the hoof wall. Apparently she wanted to make it look "nice"(I've asked why she trimmed the sole and that's what she said), and I would assume she couldn't shorten the hoof wall to where she wanted without taking out sole.

Yes, I could see bruising right after the last trim...

So, I've been studying a bunch, and I think I know why the sole was up to the hoof wall and yet the hoof was too long. I think there's something internally that needs fixing before these hooves get trimmed to look like an "ideal" hoof. My guess is that the coffin bone(aka hoof capsule) has sunk down a slight amount since this horses hooves were left for a long time untrimmed. Next, when the farrier thinned the sole(added to not trimming the rest correctly) it made it even worse. I think that if the hoof wall is kept barely above the sole(as they were before the trim) and the heels are brought down a little....

Does that make sense?

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post #13 of 23 Old 08-14-2013, 10:48 AM
Green Broke
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Long toes can definitely lead to coffin bone rotation. Whether it's a too high palmer angle(the angle at which the coffin bone has from the ground. Being completely parallel with the ground would give you a PA of 0. You want a slightly positive PA, but it varies horse to horse) or a negative PA, meaning the coffin bone is tipped upward. Usually when the coffin bone is tipped upward, you'll see a "bull-nosing" effect where the hoof wall looks like it's bulging out. In reality, it's the laminae detaching from the hoof capsule.

The hoof capsule is like the outer shell of the hoof. The coffin bone is not the hoof capsule, it's right smack dab in the center of the hoof capsule protected by laminae and the sole. So when the toe stretches out, the laminae(think like really strong Velcro holding everything together) detaches from the hoof wall and allows the coffin bone to rotate. The sole is the only thing protecting the coffin bone from the ground. That is why it is so so so important not to touch it besides exfoliating sole. That sole is there for a reason. The hoof knows what it's doing. When the coffin bone sinks, so does the sole. That's where you get the "flat-footed" look from. The hoof will gain natural concavity when the coffin bone is in its proper place. It's like a cradle, hugging the coffin bone from underneath. Paring away sole to make it concave does nothing to aid the internal structures of the hoof. It just brings them ever so dangerously closer to the ground and makes it so much easier for the coffin bone to penetrate the sole. That's why your horse is lame after a trim. I imagine it's not much fun to bear most of your half ton weight on a bone only protected by a couple pieces of cardstock paper.

This is all just how I understand it, so some of it may be incorrect(probably a lot of it LOL) but I've personally had the experience to go through this, and I still am. It's a lot of stress knowing that your horse isn't comfortable, and having to wait. Because like anything, fixing the hoof takes time. Not externally, of course, but internally. While everything looks nice on the outside within just a couple trims, it takes a bit longer for the internal structures to mend and get better. That being said, your boy's not too bad off. I would find a different farrier, forbid him from touching the sole, and have him back that toe up and bring the heels back just the tiniest bit. I would also be religious about keeping your boy's feet clean and treating them to help with the thrush. I personally use apple cider vinegar, but Pete Ramey has found great success with "50/50 mix of Triple Antibiotic Ointment and Athletes Foot Cream (1% Clotrimazole) (for humans; over the counter at any pharmacy." I myself will be giving that a try as soon as I find thrush bad enough to use it. My boys just get a little icky when it gets wet so I use the ACV as more of a prevention than anything.

I know this is A LOT to read. I didn't mean to write so much. And like I said, take everything I say with a grain of salt. I'm still learning myself but it's a great thing to learn and is just amazing to see how much more comfortable your horse could be with just a little rasping.

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post #14 of 23 Old 08-14-2013, 11:56 AM Thread Starter
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Yeah... I know about the p3 bone and palmer angle.

I've been treating him for thrush... scrub with soap, soak in salt and epsom salts, put betadine on and then I finish it all up with diaper cream mixed with antibiotic cream... I have been doing the best I can! He lives in a tiny pasture with two ponies, I can only do so much to control the manure in the paddock.

Getting another farrier is not an option. I'm going to try to ask the farrier not to trim the sole next time, I'll do his hooves myself if she does a trim like this again.

Knowledge is knowing that a tomato is a fruit, wisdom is not putting it in a fruit salad. ~ Miles Kington
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post #15 of 23 Old 08-14-2013, 12:10 PM Thread Starter
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Sorry, ignore the "aka" in my other post, I meant "more or less the hoof capsule"

Knowledge is knowing that a tomato is a fruit, wisdom is not putting it in a fruit salad. ~ Miles Kington
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post #16 of 23 Old 08-16-2013, 08:44 AM
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Hi, agree that if the frog was trimmed apart from removing diseased material & loose flaps, this is not the best. Yes, isuel, farriers do routinely do that, but to cut off the callus weakens the frog, makes it more sensitive & prone to thrush.

Agree that the sole looks over trimmed & hacked. Appears that she may have rasped into the sole around the outside & then dug in the middle a bit so it wasn't so flat. Disagree absolutely & thoroughly that a thin sole should be further thinned to keep it off the ground. If you were thin soled & prone to bruising, then unless you only walked on cushy thick carpet, sole protection is what you need, until some callus can grow, rather than further manicures.

Hard to tell but it appears point of frog is shallow & side on pic shows coronary border possibly high on pastern, so there could be little sole depth to play with anyway.

Can't really tell about heels except they're underrun, showing this is a long term prob, poss bit long & uneven. But without more info don't know whether they 'should' look better at this particular point.
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post #17 of 23 Old 08-16-2013, 09:06 AM Thread Starter
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At the moment I'm hand walking him when I get a chance and pretty much just waiting for the sole to start growing back before I do anything

Basically he was left in a pasture for about 4-5 months with maybe one or two trims between that time.

I came along and then he got on a 6 week scheduled. The first two trims she didn't cut at the sole and Jasper was actually quite perky afterwards. The third time I took him up she trimmed the first foot then when she tried to move to the next Jasper started getting fidgety which I thought was weird since he's usually good. That was when I started researching more and realizing that the farrier had trimmed the sole too much etc. That's about all the "hoof history" I know about Jasper. I don't know if that information was helpful in anyway, but...

Knowledge is knowing that a tomato is a fruit, wisdom is not putting it in a fruit salad. ~ Miles Kington
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post #18 of 23 Old 08-16-2013, 04:16 PM
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If she's a farrier, tell me where she went to school so I don't go to that one.
If you trim the walls and the sole looks flat but has some dead sole on it , leave it. Every trim you will see the sole go concave on it's own. Then you only scrape the loose pieces. I think it's kind of interesting the way the sole concaves on it's own.
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post #19 of 23 Old 08-18-2013, 01:49 PM
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Strange, uneven carving in the sole. You can remove flaky chunks, but they’ll usually shed themselves in good ground conditions.

Photo 1 - underneath: Outside heel (right, in photo) is longer than inside heel.

Photo 2 - from back of hoof: Inside toe is long, uneven with rest of hoof. Entire base of the hoof was not rasped flat. Inside (quarter) wall is weak and will break away. It’s okay if it does, but the entire hoof is about ˝” too long, even longer in the toe (see details below). The thin wall will disappear as entire hoof is rasped shorter.

Photo 3 - from the side: The entire hoof is moving long out in front of the hoof structure (see my hoof bone avatar, and see it inside the hoof and leg).

From underneath, the base at the toe needs to be rasped so the front of the hoof wall angle matches the pastern bone angle when Jasper is standing. He stands more upright. This trim angles his hoof back. (after height adjustment specific to the toe, you still need to provide a flat traveling surface, so bottom of wall must be rasped level)

A “Mustang roll” was attempted, but the angle is useless. Hoof was rasped vertically from the top, maybe trying to remove a flare, but created a false roll - a 75-degree rasping off the top does nothing. Neither does a 90-degree.

The bevel or roll comes from the bottom - about 45-degrees out from the ground, AS IF the horse had traveled his daily 30 miles across Asian steppe or Colorado desert rocks, walking and turning, removing hoof, occasionally running from coyotes or helicopters.
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post #20 of 23 Old 08-18-2013, 02:03 PM
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Not the worst trim ever, but definitely improvement to be made. I am merely trying to learn 'good' from 'bad' for my own horses' benefit, but I think your plan of forbidding her from touching the sole next time is a good plan. If she is all you can get and you're not able/willing to trim him yourself, you have to work with what you have. I'd also see if she can't make things a bit more symmetrical (even the heels out and the balance between inside and outside)... Good luck. Most people do not enjoy being told how to do their jobs, even if it is true that some retraining might be in order.
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