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Critque this trim?

This is a discussion on Critque this trim? within the Hoof Care forums, part of the Horse Health category
  • Barefoot horse negative palmer angle
  • Hoof trim "heel quarters"

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    02-03-2013, 05:56 PM
  #31
Foal
Quote:
Originally Posted by Spotted    
I think you have done great ! Most people won't take the time to learn, For being new at this your doing really good and that is a heck of alot better then some of the farrier work I have seen.
I realy like Pete Ramey, I bought his book and have learned alot. Your on the right track that's for sure.
Bare Foot Horse
Thank you very much! I'm looking forward to his feet growing so I can fix the mistakes I made this time.
     
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    02-03-2013, 06:47 PM
  #32
Trained
Quote:
Originally Posted by HighonEquine    
When I look at the pictures it looks like I could take a lot more off the heels.
When I first started I was told by my farrier (who encouraged me to do it myself) to take pics. I still take pics unless I forget my cell. And, I often look at the pics and catch something I think needs perfecting.
     
    02-03-2013, 07:25 PM
  #33
Trained
Hiya,

First & foremost, if you can't get a good farrier, I do believe it's absolutely important, if at all possible, to not just learn the theory/principles but find someone good to give you some hands-on lessons, even if you have to travel for it, even if you can only manage a weekend workshop or such. You can learn a lot from books & vids, but it's just not the same as in-person training. But if that's impossible for you, I recommend Pete Ramey's DVD set 'Under The Horse' as the next best thing. It's likely dearer than that book that was mentioned, but put it into perspective, compared to how much you've been spending on farriers.... & how much you could spend on soundness issues if you don't learn the whys & wherefores...

Heels do look possibly a tad high to me, but possibly because of how short the toes have been taken. Remember that you can always take more off if you think you need to, but you can't put it back on. I think, especially as your horse is on soft footing & there's no evidence of stretched toes etc that need to be addressed, you've probably taken too much toe, and the 'mustang roll' doesn't need to be so severe - you only really need to bevel the outer wall a bit to remove the sharp corners. I'd be inclined to leave the walls of a healthy foot protruding the sole by around 1/8" or thereabouts on that sort of footing, only taking them down right to sole level if the horse worked on hard, flat surfaces.

The heel quarters still look a tad long - you've 'scooped' the front of the quarters to sole level but not continued all the way. Even if the horse does need extra heel height for some reason, I don't think the extra wall is best left at the quarters. The bars could also do with a bit of a trim, but if your horse is on soft footing, I don't think leaving a bit of excess bar to help act as 'skid brakes' is an issue.
Attached Images
File Type: jpg IMG_3182.jpg (49.9 KB, 116 views)
     
    02-03-2013, 07:37 PM
  #34
Foal
Okay, so I need to leave more toe next time. I'm confused about the "heel quarters" though. And the blue lines..

So should I leave these feet as they are? Or do I still need to fix some things?
     
    02-04-2013, 08:35 PM
  #35
Green Broke
I think you took too much off the quarters and now have an uneven hoof. Take just a little off the toe and bars, all done from the bottom of the hoof. And don't round the edges so much, you only need a little roundness to help with break over.
     
    02-14-2013, 06:23 PM
  #36
Yearling
I think over the last 7 years what I've noticed is a mustang roll get bigger and bigger when all that's needed is a rounding of the edge. If the edges chip, you just round the edges a bit more.

I've also noticed that the "relief" of the quarters used to be barely a credit card space, is now more like scalping.

It's the "more is better" thing.

I am a great believer in a natural trim (for working horses, not mustangs), but not at the extreme where it changes the whole weight displacement of the hoof and comes darn close to that 4 pillar thing that can really do damage. Our horses are alot bigger than mustangs and carry riders. Think about why a hoof wall is needed for our horses and carrying all that extra weight. Think about what you nip or rasp away before you do.

I've also seen alot of heels taken back where "they should be" to the expense of giving a hoof a negative palmer angle (angle too low). I'd rather go for the healthy angle and let the heels move themself. I've seen it on my horse. The low angle to get those heels back was not right. When she was finally trimmed at the proper angle , the heels came back all by themselves. Now if I could just get the farrier to back up her toes,LOL, I never wanted my Tennessee walker to have toes as long as she has!!!!

I'm sorry if I am hijacking this post, but it just felt like a good place to say my piece. It's not directed at anyone, it's just that these changes over the last few years could use some rethinking.

Hionequine, your trim looks alot better than most of farriers down here have left me with. I would have been happier with you doing my horse. But please remember moderation, the truth is somewhere in between mustang trims and pasture trims. I'm hitting the reply button now, go easy on me!
loosie likes this.
     
    02-14-2013, 08:44 PM
  #37
Trained
Quote:
Originally Posted by HighonEquine    
Okay, so I need to leave more toe next time. I'm confused about the "heel quarters" though. And the blue lines..
Sorry, missed that reply. Don't know why you're confused about my crystal clear posts! The blue liines indicate where I think is perhaps a tad long *in relation to* the toe area. *BUT* what I've (so clearly) said, is I don't think that's really necessary or desirable to trim it shorter in this case. Clear as mud?? Speaking of mud tho, I would however, trim the overhangs & any daggy bits off the frog & central sulcus, as indicated by blue lines.

I think as your horse's walls are nice & tight/healthy looking, you don't need to bevel/back the toe region or front of quarters so much. What it appears is needed is a maintenance trim, whereas it appears you've done more of a 'corrective' type trim on the front half of the foot.

Depending on the terrain your horse lives & works on, you may want to keep walls to pretty much level with the sole(hard, abrasive surfaces), or you may leave them a bit longer - say up to 1/8" in yielding footing. I do think it's beneficial to keep the walls at the quarters at/close to level with the outer sole, *generally* regardless of how high or otherwise the rest, and was pointing out that while you've strongly 'scooped' & bevelled the front of the quarters, you haven't quite continued this back to the back of the quarters(heel quarters).

Quote:
I think over the last 7 years what I've noticed is a mustang roll get bigger and bigger when all that's needed is a rounding of the edge. If the edges chip, you just round the edges a bit more.
Yes, I think it's because everyone wants a 'recipe' type approach but there's no 'one size fits'. The vast majority of horses I see, including online(so I assume the majority everyone else sees too), start off with at least some flaring/stretching at toes &/or quarters, which I believe is best 'treated' with strong bevelling(degree depending on...). So people see that sort of thing & apply it generally, whereas it's not needed with a healthy, tight foot, such as OP's. Also it depends on terrain - hard, rough surfaces can require a shorter wall & little bit more of a 'roll' for eg. Such as your typical internet pic of mustang feet... but not even all wild/feral horses live in this environment & have(or should have IMO) feet that look exactly like that.

Quote:
I've also noticed that the "relief" of the quarters used to be barely a credit card space, is now more like scalping.
Hehe, makes me think of a horse I did yesterday - a clydie with the biggest 'scoops' ever to his hinds! Again, this depends on the horse in question IMO & as with other measurements & angles, there is no 'one size' recipe. Some horses 'want' virtually no 'arch' whereas some have quite prominent arches, particularly on hind feet. It can also change with state of the hooves & seasons/environments. I think trimming the walls at the ground surface to be equal height in relation to the (live)sole plane is the best way to judge that. BUT heels may be another thing again.

Quote:
but not at the extreme where it changes the whole weight displacement of the hoof and comes darn close to that 4 pillar thing that can really do damage. Our horses are alot bigger than mustangs and carry riders. Think about why a hoof wall is needed for our horses and carrying all that extra weight.
Yes, there are a lot of conditions to consider. While I do think carrying a rider is one of them, I don't think it's a big one, compared to living & working terrain, state of the feet, etc. For eg. If the horse was on hard, flat ground all the time, the '4 pillar thing' and peripheral loading can be very relevant(this can also include hoof boots!). However, most horses live & work on more varied & yielding terrain, where the entire base of the foot is 'loaded', to some degree, regardless '4 point' or otherwise trimming.

The traditional view is that the hoof wall should bear virtually the entire load and the horse should effectively 'hang' by it's laminae. This is in opposition to the 'natural' view that the entire base of the hoof should share the load & support the horse. The latter is what I believe is very obvious(won't go into why here). On hard, flat surfaces, horses carrying more weight, hooves who's walls/laminae are already stretched/ compromised, for eg, this needs to be considered, as putting more load/stress on the walls & laminae & keeping the soles from a supporting role is detrimental. *Obviously if the soles/frogs aren't up to it(for eg if the walls are compromised, you can bet the base of the foot is too), they may well need artificial support/protection also.

Quote:
I've also seen alot of heels taken back where "they should be" to the expense of giving a hoof a negative palmer angle (angle too low). I'd rather go for the healthy angle and let the heels move themself.
SO IMPORTANT!! & why when talking about balancing relevant to the sole plane I see the heels a bit differently. Even if the heels of a particular horse 'should' ideally be shorter, considering h/p angles & the rest, they may be higher due to weak heels, for eg. So if you trim heels down to 'ideal' perameters, you may just cause the horse to become even more toe first in the process. Everything must be considered & I think it's always(almost) best to trim according to what works best for that horse at that time, in a way that will *facilitate* changes if/when they're able/needed, rather than try to force the issue.

Quote:
I'm sorry if I am hijacking this post, but it just felt like a good place to say ...it's just that these changes over the last few years could use some rethinking.
Not hijacking at all IMO, but entirely relevant & pertinent. IME tho, it seems it's not the just the last few years, but that people tend to do stuff without fully understanding the why's & wherefores behind it. It's always been that way IMO, on whatever subject you want to discuss & one reason why I think owners becoming as well educated as possible, on both theory & practice, is vital. I believe we all(almost all) do the best we can with the knowledge we have, but we can all afford to learn more & potentially do better.
     
    02-15-2013, 12:28 PM
  #38
Yearling
Loosie, I can't quote that last post , it's just too long, LOL. It's good to know there are people like you here that have thought past the book instructions and above all , know what's right for the horse.

I had a great farrier for 20 years. Then I moved here and had another great farrier who moved away. Then it went downhill from there. Over a period of 7 years, I've had M.Clueless, M. T-square, m. Pull-the-heels-back-and get the angle by trimming the toe to pink. Then mr. Long toe, who just disappeared, the M. Pillar trim , back to mr. T-square, but he's good , I just need to break his t-square. He's reliable and gives my horse a real nice angle.

After the first clueless, I decided that I could give it a go. Mr. Ramey's book was an excellent guide. I trimmed her for 3 years and , although making some mistakes, she was trimmed well. Then I moved to a barn, and they thought I was nuts doing my own. So I started with the 5 last ones, and took pictures and got advice and knew what was wrong.

So, from 4 years ago, I have Known what is right for her, and been talked out of it each time by a "professional". This was the last time. I got xrays. My horse cannot be done with a t-square (xrays were posted). I was right in everything so far. I will never back down again. I have learned to trust myself. It took years, but, between Ramey and about 50 farriers advice, I've learned what my horse needs, and no one has that amount of knowledge about my horse. I've spent 7 years studying my horse. And now I have xrays to back me up, (and they're on my tablet), LOL. I know what angles work for her. I know it's hard to get them on her, but mr.tsquare has got that down. We will have to discuss M-L balance again. He's wanted her medial-high (t-square). I want her level to her live sole. Even my trainer backed him. When she watched the xrays, she didn't say much, the look on her face said it all.

It goes to show that there is you and others like you who have actually learned more than alot of farriers. I think some, like me, who have gone past the Ramey method and tweaked it based on further learning.

I guess I'm writing this because I know first hand that alot of us DO know more about their horse than the average farrier, and who have learned to stand up for themselves in what their horse needs. I'm finally there.
loosie likes this.
     
    02-18-2013, 12:42 PM
  #39
Foal
Loosie, Yes I think I understand now!

So next time I do not need to trim all the way to the sole, but instead leave about an 1/8. And the bevel does not need to be so severe either. I need to get pictures up of the hind feet, I feel like I did a MUCH better job.
loosie likes this.
     

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