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Do you tell your farrier how to trim your horse?

4K views 36 replies 21 participants last post by  Smilie 
#1 ·
Good Morning Everyone,


I am new to this forum and I am looking for a little direction. I have my own horses and mostly trail ride. I love the farrier we have and trust his judgment. Recently while helping at the barn when he came to trim some of the horses (not mine) one of the owners wanted him to trim her horse a certain way. He did not recommend it and said he would not be held responsible for any lameness issues if she chose to have him trim her horse that way. Do any of you tell your farriers how to trim your horse or do you trust that your farrier knows what is best for your horse?
 
#4 ·
No, I don't tell my barefoot trimmer what to do. I ask questions politely to learn and point out any issues I have been seeing (such as "right front foot has been developing flare and chips a week or so before appointment, should we make a change?")


I do extensive research on a farrier/trimmer and their methods before I hire them. I do not expect them to trim in a way they are not comfortable or trained in! That's not fair to them, you, or the horse!
 
#5 ·
I had one horse that was extremely tender footed and would gimp around for a day or two after trims so I asked mine to try not trimming any more sole than was absolutely necessary. It worked so I reminded him which horse it was that he needed to trim different but only until he had that set in his mind.
 
#13 ·
Yes! I have a fantastic farrier I've been using for over 20 years and I've seen him do miracles with problem hooves. He's calm and gentle with the horses and very much in demand.

However, I think just being so much in demand, a good farrier may not always remember past issues with a particular horse. The most I will do is remind him that "this is the one we are leaving a bit longer". I may discuss particular hoof issues with him as I respect his opinion but I would never, ever tell him how to do his job!
 
#6 ·
Trimming my foundered IR horse is a concerted effort between the vet /farrier /me.

I ask questions, I remind him to not take any more sole than wants to willingly come off.

The farrier does a stellar job keeping the other horse, with a minor club hoof, balanced. I don't interfere because he gets the physics of that hoof better than anyone ever has.
 
#7 ·
Do any of you tell your farriers how to trim your horse or do you trust that your farrier knows what is best for your horse?
I trust that my farrier knows what is best for my horse.

I will ask lots of questions to educate myself (and he likes explaining) but I would never tell him how to trim my horse. That is precisely why I haul to him; he knows much more about trimming/shoeing than I ever will!
 
#8 ·
So here's the thing. I use a farrier who is actually CERTIFIED through the AFA. I trust their certification process and how they choose to train their farriers. I will not EVER, under any circumstances, use a farrier who has not gone through this process. I lived with one for a long time and saw the certifications, helped and volunteered horses - Never will I ever use anyone else again. I don't care who taught them.

So no, I don't tell them how to do their job. I trust him.

If it was some yahoo who just managed to find a rasp and some nippers and needed telling, I wouldn't have him touch my horses. I'd just do it myself.
 
#9 ·
I trust my ferrier and am more than comfortable with the job he does, however, I will on occasion play with hoof angle or toe length on my gaited horses to see if I can bandaid a flaw in a gait. for example a little extra toe in the back to get them to break over a touch early stepping through on the back or something similar. nothing drastic or crazy but a couple degrees here or there or 1/4" to see if i can get what I think I want and typically we go right back to where we started within a trim.
 
#10 ·
I don't pretend to know a lot about trimming. If I did I would just do all my own trimming. I will however ask questions as i do want to learn. I will also point out any issues I've had...but generally my farrier always asks how each horse is doing & if I've had any concerns.
 
#11 ·
My husband is my farrier, no I do not tell him how to shoe and he doesn't tell me how to cook ;)

Besides it sounds like a real good way to piss off your farrier to tell him how to his job. I don't tell my doctor how to cure diseases, if I don't like it, get a new farrier/doctor etc.
It's probably one of the reasons my husband doesn't shoe for the public anymore. Too many yahoos that read something on the internet thinking it trumps his schooling, apprenticeship and experience. Discussing ideas is one thing but telling one how to do their job is another.
 
#14 ·
Like most of you I do ask questions to educate myself about how this all works. My farrier is certified and has been doing this for a very long time. I have had him trim some horses that other farriers had trimmed before and those horses had issues after trimming from the other farrier but no issues with the one I have currently. I am certainly not wanting to offend anyone in this posting and I do appreciate all the input, but what I don't understand is when anyone wants to start playing with the angles that were meant to be on each horse. I understand that each horse is different, just like people are. My farrier trims for each horse and proper angles etc. But he was asked by one person to leave the heel longer and toe shorter. He then explained to me why he wouldn't. And his explanation sounded plausible. The person whom asked him to do this was not educated in the business of trimming a horse as the farrier is, but wanted a certain action out of the horse. When trying to get things like "troping" out of a horse, which in this breed of horse would not be a natural gait, I feel it would harm the horse in the long run. Am I wrong?
 
#15 ·
Depends.
Before I became aware of the entire hoof mechanism, through barefoot re rehabilitation, I never objected when I had a traditional farrier shoe my horse, and routinely remove sole or trim that frog aggressively
Now, I am very selective s to who does shoe a horse of mine, and the farrier I now use, is very receptive to just removing nay slight sole, needed to set that shoe
I no longer blindly accept a farrier who routinely applies toe clips, as once happened, when I was given a farrier's name, to shoe a horse on short term notice
I don't now tell my farrier how to trim and shoe my horse, but discuss concerns, as keeping the toes backed up, working on correcting the under run heels that my husband's horse tends to have, and which I keep in check, most of the year, when he is barefoot. Don't want it to regress in the few months that he is shod
Far as my foundered IR horse, I'm pretty much at the point where no one but myself touches her feet, as I 'know her feet', and have been on some major roller coaster rides with her, using both traditional farriers and barefoot trimmers, that I thought, 'had' to be able to help her more then me, when in the end, I am more famliar with her feet and their journey, plus can do minor adjustments, frequently, versus doing too much at one time.
 
#16 ·
It sounds like you have some education in regard to the workings of the hoof as it relates to the rest of the leg. In the past with my farrier if I have an issue with a particular horse I explain the issue and he then relates to me what he will do and why. I do not pretend to have the knowledge of a farrier, but have taken equine classes, specifically physiology, and I still don't pretend to know everything in regard to this issue. Do you happen to show your horses? I guess the question that I am asking is do you trim your horses to "perform" a certain way? And say you are trimming lets say a quarter horse, to perform a certain gait, wouldn't you think that in the long term for the horse that would be detrimental? My farrier explained why he would not leave the heel long and the toe short in this certain horse, explaining the many things that could go wrong with both the foot, leg and shoulders if he would do so. He said he would do so if the owner really wanted but would not be held liable for any health issues that may arise from doing so. Does that make sense? I am looking at the amount of horses, just in my area, young horses (relatively young anyway, 10, 12) that have been forced to perform for show and have been trimmed to perform a certain way that are now lame. I was very happy that my farrier explained the problems that could arise, and due to my schooling, I could understand what he was talking about. But again, why would you put a horse through something it was not truly meant to do?
 
#17 ·
No, No , No, I definitely do not ever agree with the idea of shoing a horse in such a manner to encourage any gait!
Correct hoof parameters are universal, regardless of breed, far as longevity of soundness
I know farriers, due to a moral stance, won't shoe halter horses, as the owners want them 'stood up'
Many race horses are purposely shod with long toes, with the idea that since it will increase breakover, it will lengthen stride, thus make the horse faster
I hate seeing gaited horses shod with built up shoes ect
While shoing feet of a horse, with healthy feet, short term, after rendering a correct trim, has minimal negative impact, shoing a horse, purposely leaving heels long, toes long, ect, ect, invites pathology
In fact, Dr Stephan O
Grady , who himself is also a master farrier, and who also specializes in equine podiatry, lists BAd FARRIERY AS THE NUMBER ONE CAUSE OF LAMENESS IN HORSES

I don't tell a farrier how to do his job, but I also no longer am just apathetic, as I learned not to be, through the school of hard knocks.
I had a horse suffer the consequences, and he was shod by a farrier that taught at the local farrier lab.

As a lab tech, I have also not just taken any Doctor's advise as that of
God', as they make mistakes, same as a plumber, same as a mechanic. I have in fact, saved my oldest son's life , when he was about 6 months old,getting a second opinion, which wound up saving his life. In fact, when I got off work, and went to the other hospital emerg, where I had told my husband to take our son, as the doctor whose diagnosis I questioned, was still working in the emerg at the hospital i worked at, the pediatrician greeted me by saying, 'why did you not bring him sooner. he almost died!'
I can list a few more incidences, but that is neither here nor there, except i learned to become informed, and not to ever again just blindly let someone work on my horse';s feet, without question, just because he is the pro!
Does not mean I tell him how to do his job, but neither do I just not question anything, afraid of offending the 'expert'
 
#18 ·
Thanks so much for your input :) ...It is very much appreciated...and great to know what I really already knew, but wanted confirmation on. I am also very happy to know that there are more people out there like you that believe in letting a horse be a horse and not try to turn them into something they are not supposed to be.
 
#19 ·
No, never ! I have an amazing farrier and he did a great job working with my vets when my mare was having foot troubles.
 
#20 ·
This is a "depends". I have a very good knowledge of hoof health, angles, and barefoot trimming, so I feel comfortable discussing hoof health with a competent farrier. I've unfortunately have been living in "decent farrier no man's land" and after watching rank amateurs who "Grandpa taught me" lame horses and watching shoes fly off at every trail ride (others not mine), I was forced to trim my own.

I'm relocating to Davie FL where I'll have (at least 6 mos out of the year) have access to my amazing farrier again, but when he's not around, I'll be trimming myself.

Now, when it is time to have my farrier come by, we discuss how the feet have been, any issues, etc so he is well informed and we are all on the same idea of what work needs to be done. Honestly, if I don't have our "pre trim conference" I wouldn't want any farrier to touch my horse no matter how good they say he/she is.

There is also a big difference in "telling" and "advising or asking questions".
 
#21 ·
If I told my farrier how to trim one of the hoses he would hand me his apron and tools!

The only time I have ever told him how to trim would be if I had a new foal with a deformity then the vet, farrier and me would discuss what was best.

If there is a new 'fad' I have heard about I will talk to him about it and get his opinion.
 
#22 ·
That used to be my attitude! I thought that anyone who was a farrier, should never be questioned.
Thus, I said nothing when that one farrier who taught at the local farrier lab, would back my gelding's toes up, by simply taking the nippers and taking sole plus wall, from the apex of the frog, forward.

I now know there was distal decent going on, and there already was not enough sole in that area

I used to say nothing when a farrier pared the sole and frog with each reset , now the farrier I use, respects my stance, and takes only what little sole he needs, if any, to set those shoes
THat is being pro active, having input, and while not telling the farrier how to do his job, one also does not blindly, out of ignorance, just accept that he is infallible .
It is surprising as to how many traditional farriers are not in tune with latest hoof research. In fact, Dr Robert Bowker, who teaches, as well as does hoof research, states that many of the farrier books are out of date. Many of the farriers who have worked with him, have adapted shoing practices that allow as much as possible, healthy hoof mechanism, including things like frog on the ground
Navicular syndrome is man made, often due to accepted shoing practices
 
#23 ·
Perhaps, the fact that I trim all my own horses, have taken both traditional and various barefoot trimming courses, including ELPO hoof mapping, ect, that when I do have a farrier apply shoes, I do have an insight of how that horse should be trimmed, before those shoes are applied. I don't profess to know how to drive those nails, or fit a shoe, but I am pretty conifdent, far as knowing how to trim ahorse, esp those with hoof issues, having learned to do so
 
#24 ·
My DH also trims our own horses and has done for many years after being trained by a farrier in the UK who was champion farrier many times over, he is frequently complemented on his work by registered qualified farriers however he takes the same stance as me - if you pay someone to do a job then you expect them to do it properly, if you think they aren't doing it properly then you ask them to leave your property and you find someone else
 
#25 ·
The last farrier I used was a New Zealander, he had competed in the World Championships, had also judged there. He was a perfectionist and always had three apprentices at various stages of training, he inspected their work through a magnifying glass, he was that particular.

He handled the horses well. Any new horse he had to shoe he always saw it walked and trotted up to see how it moved, he knew his job and took pride in his work. I just let him get on with it. He only ever required the foals to be held, by the time they were yearlings he would just tie them like the older horses. I was always around if something dos go wrong.

If I had a lame horse and thought it was in their foot or a horse threw a shoe, he would turn up either evening or early next morning. He would call to say a time and would be there within ten minutes of that time. Usually he came to me at around 7 a.m. as he knew I would be up and about and he loved my egg and bacon rolls!
 
#26 ·
If I have to tell someone how to do their job, then I've hired the wrong person. I would absolutely ask questions and volunteer information, but I expect a professional service provider to know how to provide the service I hired them for.

That being said, I'm a trimmer now, and I do my own horse.
 
#27 ·
I think there is a bit of muddy waters here!
There is a difference in telling a farrier to do a trim, or a shoing job, that goes against what is best for the horse, in order for some show/performance goals, and perhaps having input, that is based on many years of trimming horses, studying latest hoof research info.
Afterrall, there is a reason that the barefoot movement got so strong, and often spear headed by former traditional farriers. Many horses were being lamed by bad farriery, and even Dr Stephan O'Grady, himself also being a farrier first for many years, before he became a vet, and who now only has to consult the vet and the farrier, in himself, far as any shoing approach in his equine podiatry practice, as he shoes the horses himself, based on his veterinary knowledge,lists the number one cause of lameness in horses is "BAD FARRIery.
Many people also think because a horse is kept sound in shoes, he is truly sound, and this is not so. Shoing can often cover a major hoof pathology, until the point is reached, where those shoes can no longer compensate
When I had breast cancer, I did not tell my doctors how to treat it, but I did do research as to options, different treatment protocols by various specialists,based on tumor grade and other factors, and then chose what worked best for me, far as re -occurrence risk , versus side effects
Working as a lab tech, I can re call a mother, not wanting to insult her family doctor by getting a second opinion, thus questioning that doctor's diagnosis.. He told her that her son just had growing pains. Not until he was walking the floor in agony, during the night, did she seek a second opinion. The child had osteogenic sarcoma,in one arm, which by then had spread to his lungs
It is not so clear as just firing a farrier, if you think perhaps he is not doing a good job, as he might be doing a very good job, as per how he was taught, but does not mean you can't ask questions, have input, esp if that is based on some true knowledge
My farrier certainly does not mind that, always compliments me on how good I have my horse's feet looking, and asks my opinion.
For instance, Charlie has one club foot, thus two front feet at different angles. Many people want their farrier to make those feet look the same as possible, thus he asks me, 'what do we want to do here"?
I tell him that I want the feet to be trimmed and shod for functional soundness, allowed to be different as needed He agrees that it is a good approach, and happy to shoe for someone that realizes this factor, versus expecting their farrier to make those feet the same, by either leaving the heels longer on the non club foot, or taking the heels down on the club foot below live sole, and to where the resulting pull by the DDFT will be exacerbated.
Curious as to why people think it is fine to perhaps question their trainer, but a farrier is beyond any mortal input, where you just turn your horse's feet over , Carte Blanche
Sorry, I did that in the past, and learned through the school of hard knocks, that some actual hoof knowledge, so you can at least recognize, understand what that farrier is doing, far as knowing the landmarks that help identify internal structures, and then perhaps at least ask, if that farrier is trimming contrary to facts you have learned, is not a bad thing. He just might have a very good reason, presented correctly to you, and thus help you in that hoof knowledge journey
 
#29 ·
If you pay a lot of money for lessons off a good trainer that's come via references and proven ability why would you want to be the one telling them what to do?
If I was paying Carl Hester for a dressage lesson I certainly wouldn't be expecting to know better than him
It seems to me that if you've got enough doubts in anyone you're using that makes you feel you have to be telling them what they should be doing then they aren't worth using
Discussing your own thoughts and concerns, asking why they're doing something in a certain way with any professional or sharing information that you might have picked up somewhere and talking about it isn't the same IMO as telling them how to do their job.
 
#32 ·
Yes, but most of us have taken clinics from many very successful trainers in a certain discipline, then take from each what works for us and our horse
Why not apply the same type of open mind, and broad learning experience, when it comes to rendering hoofcare to our horses?????
How many here, have read any of the hoof research, done by people like Pollit, Bowker, or read any of the barefoot re rehabilitation done by people like Pete Ramey?
Until you do, and can understand the idea of just accepting traditional shoing principles,100%, and just writing that cheque!
 
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