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Farrier that doesn't do shoes?

This is a discussion on Farrier that doesn't do shoes? within the Hoof Care forums, part of the Horse Health category
  • Kc la pierre hoof care
  • Kc la pierre bad press

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    01-30-2012, 07:15 PM
  #31
Trained
Yep, it's a debate alright & it seems to me there are many fanatics on either side of the fence. You may like to check out my signature link to the thread on hoof & lameness info. I suggest you learn the principles of various different approaches & analyse the pros & cons of them, before coming to your own decision on your horse's care. Whether shod or bare, owner education is vital I reckon, because I think the most damage happens out of ignorance & bad management.

On the subject of arthritis, I *generally* think shoeless is better, because of reduced concussion, but I would want to know more about the arthritis - eg. Where, how bad, has it ossified, etc & the management & age of the horse to have a better idea whether shod may be a better option.
     
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    02-02-2012, 02:51 AM
  #32
Foal
I've met a a KC LaPierre trimmer that had an attitude like that. I let her have my friend's hooves for 6 months and then fired her due to additional pathology. What a talker! I've also heard from others stating that they come out of school like that....like they just came from an Amway convention or something.

Ringbone, high or low cannot be seen by the naked eye. Were xrays ever taken to determine the arthritis? The xrays are going to tell the truth and whether it is articular or not. They would also help the trimmer to balance the hoof exactly, which is important to not aggravating arthritis. The boots and pads are a softer landing and promoting development that's going to erase other pathology that also causes pain. A well balanced/developed hoof is going to have a much better chance to laugh in the face of arthritis. Move-ease, booted, balanced diet, balanced trim and out 24/7 for constant movement...good for both development and arthritis.

Be nice to see pics of his current trim. Could be he's just a talker and pics would show whether he put a hoof in his mouth or not. Rads would be better, then you'd know exactly what you are dealing with.
     
    02-02-2012, 07:34 PM
  #33
Trained
Quote:
Just have to say that not every horse is even capable of going barefoot since tough feet aren't exactly a priority for many breeders.
Agree fully, but I think it's not so much to do with breeding but management - I think 'good' or 'bad' feet are generally made, not bred. In an 'ideal' environment I think the vast majority of horses would be capable of doing most things people require of them, but in the real world, environment & management for this is not possible & often not even desireable for many(most?), so horses do tend to need artificial protection. Not that this necessarily means conventional rims though.

Quote:
He does have soft and flat soles which bruise easily. He does well on any surface though and so do our other five.
I would consider that soft flat soles that bruise easily means he's NOT doing well & needs protection & support under his soles.

Quote:
Originally Posted by AmazinCaucasian    
Now I know barefoot trimmers will say, "If you know how to do it, it'll always work".
*Some* barefoot trimmers. Or perhaps they're talking of that elusive 'ideal world'

Quote:
claims that shoeing is painful, causes damage, and even abusive. HAHA!
I agree that it is probably not necessarily damaging, but I think it's just as 'extremist' to discount any negative effects & say it doesn't have any negative effects at all. I think it definitely can, but good management, good hoofcare & *appropriate* shoeing can greatly reduce the risks. I think it's probably fairer to say that shoes can(not will) *contribute* to problems more than they actually cause them.

Quote:
I challenge anyone to show me evidence that a good shoe job causes lameness or even discomfort.
Take a look at Dr Bowker's research for one. Unfortunately, due to lack of scientific studies(across the board, not just with 'barefoot'), most evidence is anecdotal though, so IMO it's entirely logical to be skeptical & question it, but certainly worth considering & looking into seriously.

And while we're being skeptical & analysing all that, we could also consider the lack of scientific evidence for the assumption that shoeing doesn't have any 'cons'. Eg. How has it been proven that long term shoeing doesn't have anything to do with contraction? What is the evidence that despite coronary & circumflex arteries being restricted, this doesn't effect circulation? Or why healthy bare horses have warm legs & hooves while shod tend to be cold. What evidence is there that shows that the concussion due to peripheral loading on hard surfaces & no support under the foot has no effect on the foot or what's above it?

So... I agree fully that people shouldn't be knocked for shoeing, that it's sometimes necessary & also that boots & such don't work for every situation/horse(tho these days there are enough good choices to fit the vast majority of situations IMO) but I think it's important for owners to do their own homework, be open minded & look objectively at the pros & cons of all approaches, in order to make a more informed decision on what's best for their horse.

Quote:
I have to agree here. Show me any horse who would put up with that type of pain when they, at that point, have the greatest leverage to get away from it.
It's not the act of shoeing a horse(assuming it's done properly) that hurts, but that ultimately damage that can come about can cause pain. If you doubt that horses are stoic enough not to make it obvious, consider;

Quote:
He does have soft and flat soles which bruise easily. He does well on any surface though and so do our other five.
its lbs not miles likes this.
     
    02-02-2012, 08:18 PM
  #34
Yearling
Quote:
Originally Posted by loosie    
Agree fully, but I think it's not so much to do with breeding but management - I think 'good' or 'bad' feet are generally made, not bred. In an 'ideal' environment I think the vast majority of horses would be capable of doing most things people require of them, but in the real world, environment & management for this is not possible & often not even desireable for many(most?), so horses do tend to need artificial protection. Not that this necessarily means conventional rims though.



I would consider that soft flat soles that bruise easily means he's NOT doing well & needs protection & support under his soles.



*Some* barefoot trimmers. Or perhaps they're talking of that elusive 'ideal world'



I agree that it is probably not necessarily damaging, but I think it's just as 'extremist' to discount any negative effects & say it doesn't have any negative effects at all. I think it definitely can, but good management, good hoofcare & *appropriate* shoeing can greatly reduce the risks. I think it's probably fairer to say that shoes can(not will) *contribute* to problems more than they actually cause them.



Take a look at Dr Bowker's research for one. Unfortunately, due to lack of scientific studies(across the board, not just with 'barefoot'), most evidence is anecdotal though, so IMO it's entirely logical to be skeptical & question it, but certainly worth considering & looking into seriously.

And while we're being skeptical & analysing all that, we could also consider the lack of scientific evidence for the assumption that shoeing doesn't have any 'cons'. Eg. How has it been proven that long term shoeing doesn't have anything to do with contraction? What is the evidence that despite coronary & circumflex arteries being restricted, this doesn't effect circulation? Or why healthy bare horses have warm legs & hooves while shod tend to be cold. What evidence is there that shows that the concussion due to peripheral loading on hard surfaces & no support under the foot has no effect on the foot or what's above it?

So... I agree fully that people shouldn't be knocked for shoeing, that it's sometimes necessary & also that boots & such don't work for every situation/horse(tho these days there are enough good choices to fit the vast majority of situations IMO) but I think it's important for owners to do their own homework, be open minded & look objectively at the pros & cons of all approaches, in order to make a more informed decision on what's best for their horse.



It's not the act of shoeing a horse(assuming it's done properly) that hurts, but that ultimately damage that can come about can cause pain. If you doubt that horses are stoic enough not to make it obvious, consider;
Nice consolidation

I've NEVER bought a shod horse that I didn't spend months getting one or more problems straightened out on with their feet, including spliting that started at nail holes. To date I've yet to have one not come out good and riding, even on pavement, with no problems after a year or less of being unshod.

Anyone can say what they want. I've kept only unshod horses for 40 years and for me a 40 year history of no foot problems with any horse (except ones that came with them from being shod, but healed up in the end while unshod) speaks for itself.
     
    02-03-2012, 08:38 AM
  #35
Foal
Quote:
Originally Posted by AmazinCaucasian    
First, I've never heard that farriers ONLY do shoeings. That may be a regional thing, but I do both, probably about half and half. I always recommend to just trim if it's feasible. It's a better profit margin. But when it won't work, it won't work. Now I know barefoot trimmers will say, "If you know how to do it, it'll always work". For example, my horses always wear shoes because I may have to unexpectedly ride up in the rocky hills for a couple days looking for cows. I don't have the time or the ambition to condition my horse's hooves to rocks when I don't even have them in my pastures. I won't take a chance fracturing a coffin bone to have them barefoot. They need to be ready to go ride anywhere and I don't need a $200 pair of hoof boots on em rubbing the hide off. The statement of barefoot horses being easier on the ground is funny. I've never heard that one. It's good to hear that people have good-footed horses that can hold up barefoot. But just because your animals can take it, don't ridicule others who can't.

What I have a problem with is when barefoot believers start sounding like extremists. To get followers, they use the "Shock Factor". They make claims that shoeing is painful, causes damage, and even abusive. HAHA! They compare shoeing to consticting little Chinese girl's feet. No, sorry folks, those are 2 very different things. They have videos on Youtube demonstrating "what shoes do" and show a hydraulic press busting a cadaver hoof. They are much like the animal rights activists, convincing people that if you do this, you're condoning abuse. Baloney!

I challenge anyone to show me evidence that a good shoe job causes lameness or even discomfort. When I say shoe job, I mean a straight, M/L balanced shoe job with proper expansion. No neglect pictures of a 6 month old shoe job like my neighbor used to do. Or a video of a horse that Billy-Bob-Gomer up the road slammed some steel on. Show me how a correct shoeing made a sound horse lame.

A good shoeing protects your horse's feet. It can straighten a crooked horse and correct gait faults. It can fix injuries, founder, and leg deformaties. The correct use of sliding plates on reiners and aluminum on pleasure horses helps get the desired results in the show arena. Good solid shoeing doesn't constrict a horse's hooves or pinch them at all. That's the reason for expansion. I'm glad for the barefooters for their success, but don't try to shove it down out throats and claim we're doing detrimental things by shoeing.

I agree 100% with this person, and I'd have him as a farrier in my barn.
     
    02-03-2012, 08:58 AM
  #36
dee
Started
Our farrier believes in shoeless whenever possible, and yes, he is a farrier. He does the "natural balance" trimming (don't think that's the same as "barefoot?") but he also does corrective shoeing when necessary. He has all kinds of clients - from race horse owners, show horse owners, performance and rodeo horse owners, and those like us with ordinary backyard horses.

His preference is bare feet, trimmed regularly, but he's also had to treat damaged hooves. One of his favorite stories is of a local APHA stallion that had done very well on the show circuit and was being used for breeding. The horse was being hauled home from a show, and somehow got his foot caught in something (I'd almost say his foot went through the floor!) and nearly half his hoof was snapped off. It took a lot of work to rebuild that hoof and get it to grow out - but eventually the horse was sound again. He's pretty proud of that story.

Our vet recommended him to us because my mare had some pretty serious hoof issues when we got her - all tied to poor trimming. After my guy got through with her first trim (and she was being a real pain in the buttocks), she walked out with a nice free stride - so much better than the little short steps she'd been taking. Took nearly nine months to get the "bells" to grow out so that her feet looked normal...
     
    02-03-2012, 05:48 PM
  #37
Yearling
Thanks hillside
     
    02-03-2012, 06:18 PM
  #38
Foal
I have worked as a barehooftrimmer for some years now, my original plan was to take the farrier education too, but I have enough costumers as it is, and if some of “my” horses need shoes (forever or for a period) I call a farrierfriend of mine and he take the job for me. I have no problem with people having shoes on their horses, and if I think it’s for the best of the horse I tell the owner so.
I’m very lucky to have a good companionship with an excellent farrier, so when someone plans to make their horse barefoot he is trimming and shoeing the hoofs in edition to make them barefoot, often 2-3times before I take the shoes of. That way we can prepare the hoof and the horse starts of as a barefoot better than if I just pulled the shoes of without any preparation.
I have about35 horses that I trim every month (some few have a crazy hoofgrowth and need to be trimmed every or every second week, not “bad crazy”, just very, very fast growing) , plus some horses now and then. Just one of these horses needs hoofboots for protection, and this is not a horse that should be shoed, recommended by farrier and vet. The rest of the horses have their own boots, because we need some heavy studs in the winter.
My costumers do all kind of training with their horses, from dressage, jumping, harness racing, Mounted Games, reining, trail, endurance and so on- on all kind of terrain. So yes, horses can go barefoot and still be in normal use. Actually, the only problem I have on “my” horses is that they don’t wear of enough hoof by them self…
(and again, please excuse my bad English…)
loosie likes this.
     

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