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Four point trim?

This is a discussion on Four point trim? within the Hoof Care forums, part of the Horse Health category

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        04-08-2014, 12:32 PM
      #21
    Green Broke
    I spoke with my farrier about the 4 point trim. He actually studied under Dr. Redden and learned the trim from him, and has been trimming his barefoot horses with the 4 point trim the past 20+ years. He told me it increases sole thickness and encourages heel first landing, both of which my boy needs. He'll be coming out to help me soon and show me how to do a 4 point trim. I'm actually going to give it a try on Henny and see how the trim affects him.
         
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        04-08-2014, 01:19 PM
      #22
    Banned
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by bsms    
    My horses live on rocky trails & a rocky, very hard ground corral. Their feet tend to chip on the sides and sometimes right at the toe. Our farrier said it was nothing to worry about as long as the chips were not too big.

    I'm not sure I believe in a "4 point trim", but a "4 point bevel" might make a lot of sense where I live. It might keep any chipping there from becoming a big chip. Someone with different terrain might need something different.

    I know nothing about trimming, but I recognize the pattern of wear...
    Yes breaking off the out edge can help big chipping and splitting from going too far up the wall.
    On the quarters there is often not much thickness to the wall. What usely happens is the quarters will break off at the sole level.
         
        04-09-2014, 04:44 PM
      #23
    Yearling
    Bsms, I love the way you put that. A 4 point bevel. That sounds like what I do if need be.


    Kayella, I would love to know how that 4 point trim grows thicker sole than another barefoot trim? And encourages more of a heel first landing than a barefoot trim? Sounds interesting.
         
        04-09-2014, 05:14 PM
      #24
    Green Broke
    I would assume that since the horse gets a very quick breakover(at the pillars?) it would encourage heel first landing. How it thickens the sole, I've got no clue. But my farrier is scheduled to come out Saturday and I'll bother him with questions and such. And maybe post pictures of Henny's feet afterwards!
         
        04-09-2014, 07:46 PM
      #25
    Trained
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by Kayella    
    I would assume that since the horse gets a very quick breakover(at the pillars?) it would encourage heel first landing. How it thickens the sole, I've got no clue. But my farrier is scheduled to come out Saturday and I'll bother him with questions and such. And maybe post pictures of Henny's feet afterwards!
    Yep, be interested to hear, & also what he says about horses that do lots of turns - eg. Cutting, barrels, dressage, etc, who regardless of how symmetrical they may be in confo & movement, will not be 'breaking over' at the centre while they're working...

    I don't think that putting the breakover back to where it should be would encourage heel first landings - and if heels are sensitive, horses will land toe first regardless of mechanics. Soles get thicker with good health & use - just like yours will, if you care to go bare & grow some callouses. But as with horses, if your feet are unhealthy or too sensitive, you also need to protect them when conditions are too much, or it will work against 'conditioning' too.
         
        04-09-2014, 07:56 PM
      #26
    Green Broke
    Good points, Loosie. I'll definitely be asking my farrier those questions. Why it helps with heel first landing, how it grows sole, the mechanics of a lot of torque on the hoof, and I'm sure a bunch of other questions. He's worked and learned alongside Dr. Redden so he should be a valuable source. I'm definitely interested to see how the trim affects Henny as well.
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        04-10-2014, 01:26 AM
      #27
    Banned
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by loosie    
    Yep, be interested to hear, & also what he says about horses that do lots of turns - eg. Cutting, barrels, dressage, etc, who regardless of how symmetrical they may be in confo & movement, will not be 'breaking over' at the centre while they're working...

    I don't think that putting the breakover back to where it should be would encourage heel first landings - and if heels are sensitive, horses will land toe first regardless of mechanics. Soles get thicker with good health & use - just like yours will, if you care to go bare & grow some callouses. But as with horses, if your feet are unhealthy or too sensitive, you also need to protect them when conditions are too much, or it will work against 'conditioning' too.
    Shortening the toe or leaving it long will affect some of the biomachanics of the horses stride and determine how short or long that stride will be and whether the hoof will land heel - flat or toe first.
    We must see the horses conformation as a whole:
         
        04-11-2014, 06:07 PM
      #28
    Weanling
    Quote:
    I would assume that since the horse gets a very quick breakover(at the pillars?) it would encourage heel first landing.
    The idea of placing the breakover point (the roll in the toe) where it belongs is to prevent DELAY in the the breakover. ( Breakover being defined in THIS sense as the moment the heel leaves the ground). If the bottom end of the toe is too forward the foot gets stuck on the ground a little longer than it should as the horse is still going forward over the foot. Then the by the time the heels lift the whole horse is more forward over the leg than where he should be. That in turn causes the leg to not have the "air time" it needs to reach the full length of stride and lock that knee and flip the toe up to land slight heel first before the horse falls on his face.
    Quote:
    How it thickens the sole, I've got no clue.
    When the toe is stretched forward, it pulls the SOLE tissue forward as well. The sole gets thinner because the horn tubules that make up the sole and are supposed to be vertical get bent forward, flattening. Removing the leverage at the toe stops the forward pull and allows the sole material to grow more vertically and thereby to grow to its potential thickness .and get more concave.
    Quote:
    But my farrier is scheduled to come out Saturday and I'll bother him with questions and such. And maybe post pictures of Henny's feet afterwards!
    discussion is good and hopefully he will offer the same answers that I have.
    loosie and Kayella like this.
         
        04-11-2014, 06:13 PM
      #29
    Green Broke
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by Patty Stiller    
    When the toe is stretched forward, it pulls the SOLE tissue forward as well. The sole gets thinner because the horn tubules that make up the sole and are supposed to be vertical get bent forward, flattening. Removing the leverage at the toe stops the forward pull and allows the sole material to grow more vertically and thereby to grow to its potential thickness .and get more concave.
    Of course! I knew that a longer toe thinned the sole. I was thinking more specifically how a 4 point trim thickened sole as compared to a "standard" well trimmed hoof so I wasn't looking at the big picture I guess. Thanks for reminding me of that!

    He'll be coming out around noon tomorrow so I can prod him for more info then.
         
        04-11-2014, 06:32 PM
      #30
    Trained
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by amigoboy    
    Shortening the toe or leaving it long will affect some of the biomachanics of the horses stride and determine how short or long that stride will be and whether the hoof will land heel - flat or toe first.
    We must see the horses conformation as a whole:
    Horse Conformation: Stride evaluation, as seen on eXtension - YouTube
    First bit is a 'no brainer' IME, which is the reason I so strongly disagree with your presumption that long toes on TWH's for eg is OK - biomechanics aren't breed-specific. Every breed is structurally the same.

    Not sure I understand the second part of what you said above, in relation to the first. IME toe length doesn't govern whether a horse has a heel first landing ...Except maybe if toe is so stretched & sensitive as to force a horse onto his heels.
    Patty Stiller likes this.
         

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