Four point trim? - Page 4

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Four point trim?

This is a discussion on Four point trim? within the Hoof Care forums, part of the Horse Health category

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    04-12-2014, 02:05 AM
Originally Posted by loosie    
First bit is a 'no brainer' IME, which is the reason I so strongly disagree with your presumption that long toes on TWH's for eg is OK - biomechanics aren't breed-specific. Every breed is structurally the same.

Not sure I understand the second part of what you said above, in relation to the first. IME toe length doesn't govern whether a horse has a heel first landing ...Except maybe if toe is so stretched & sensitive as to force a horse onto his heels.
Once again....are we talking about shortening the hoof length at the toe section or shortening the toe back to the white line......or both in order to alter the stride?

The TW babies I worked with had a natural 3-beat walk.
Have you ever seen a quarter horse do a 3-takt?
Shoeing the lite shod Tennesse Walker 3:30-

Did you not understand the other film......conformaiton and the slope of the shoulder.
The best I could find, what did you not understand?

Normaly the heels take a lot of wear and punishment as it is so why would anyone want too over work them even more with heel landing first?
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    04-12-2014, 06:04 AM
Pardon? You've lost me completely. Don't know what a 3-takt is, let alone IF a QH can do one. No, didn't see any vids. It's a chore to watch vids on this computer.
    04-12-2014, 06:56 AM
Originally Posted by loosie    
Pardon? You've lost me completely. Don't know what a 3-takt is, let alone IF a QH can do one. No, didn't see any vids. It's a chore to watch vids on this computer.
Oh.....sorry, I didnt know you had trouble loading down the films.

You are right in that the anatomy and biomacanics are the same in all horses.
But with selective breeding we can obtain certain desired gaits.
Some horses like Iclandics have a natural "Tollt Gait".
On the TW ranch I was at we would watch the babys to see if they had the natrual Running Walk. Those that were a lite so-so I would pony them with the mamma so they would match her step for step then they would do it themselfs. Iv seen some TWs that did not or could not pick up the walk regardless of the breeding.
    04-12-2014, 02:04 PM
From what I've seen on TWH's, some come out of the box with a nice gait, and some need to work to gait nicely.

I've seen a lot of Walkers that need or not need toe based on whether they forge which is common in big strided horses.

The way toe length was explained to me was if you speed up a breakover with a shorter toe, the other toes compensate for the speed up.

The toe length manipulation is to change their stance or distance between the fronts and the backs. It changes the distance of where each of the feet land.

I just keep doing what I've been doing. The horse shows me what angle he wants in the top inch of new hoof. Then rolled from 1/2 the thickness of the wall and rounded on the outer hoof. If they forge, a bit more or less toe is left to increase to lengthen their stance because horses will always strive to land with the hoof trying to equally share the weight all the way around. With a longer toe, they're foot will have to land further ahead to feel that equal weight spread.
amigoboy likes this.
    04-12-2014, 04:10 PM
You hit the nail on the head Princess, you know your gaiters.
Horses with a big over step shorten the front toes for a faster break over and leave the back toes long for a little slower break over.
I believe this is pretty much standard for todays trotters, (back in the 70s we had the French Trotters with long toes and toe weights for extended stride, they looked like a wind mill when they trotted).
The same thing would be for most of the TWs doing standard work, short toe on the fronts, but for the Big Lick typs with high action the front toe would be left long and weights applied.
It can be a real jungle when shoeing the gaiters, you have to know what they are going to be used for before you shoe them.
    04-12-2014, 07:36 PM
I am actually aware that gaited horses... have different gaits. I'm also aware that people lengthen toes... & all the other stuff, to exaggerate the gait, but I'm just interested in long term soundness, not making gaits look prettier. I don't know how that is relevant to this discussion though.
Beling likes this.
    04-12-2014, 08:31 PM
I do believe that stacked up Big Lick horses are illegal now. Animal cruelty. The abundance of gaited horses in this country are pleasure and trail horses and get a natural trim, which may or may not include leaving more toe, or leaving hooves longer. Where the average horse has a toe length of 2.75 -3.5 inches, a Walker may be left with 3.5- 4 inches. Mine are under 3.5 inches, probably closer to 3.25 inches. And that's leaving a bit of toe.

There has been a change over the past 10 or so years to trim or shoe for soundness. That's a good thing and teaches people what is best for their horse.

But I haven't run into anyone yet who will give up their sport of choice because it shortens their horse's useful life. In comparing jumping, barrel racing, roping, dressage, and riding miles of rocky trail, a bit more toe is a small thing to desire, and far less harmful to longevity than all those other sports. And that bit of toe makes it a lot easier to keep their timing, not make it prettier. (Prettier would be the minority of show horses that get toe weights etc.)

TWH's gaits are mostly boring. But comfy. There's some wackos out there who think they should look like a Saddlebred. They do not. If they wanted a fancy stepper, they should have gotten a Saddlebred. If you look up saddlebred foals on youtube, a lot of the foals are born with the higher knee action.

We in this hoof care forum are probably in the smallest minority of people who live, eat, and breathe healthy hooves. And we can come here and obsess over hooves with other obsessed people .

People at my barn have already questioned why their horses all have splits at the toes and mine is one of 3 who doesn't . (28 horses). And I have to keep my mouth shut because their farrier has been there many years. Yes, I'm obsessed. That's why my horse's hooves look good.
amigoboy likes this.
    04-13-2014, 01:15 AM
Having a short or long toe will not effect the long term soundness, only the stride.

Has to do with trimming the hoof. 4-point trim....or whatever you want to call it.
    04-13-2014, 01:26 AM
I came across this "measuring the hoof" when I was helping shoe on a mule ranch.
Totaly new for me as I was trained too look at the horse, the leg, then the foot and ask myself:
Does this foot fit the horse?
How much can I take off?
Where do I take off.

Yes the Big Lickers are having a tough time.
For me its the extream end of the ego trip line of horse people at the cost of the horse.
    04-13-2014, 03:28 PM
Hm, in the second video the angle of the hoof was changed so much, I expect the horse was sore for a bit. I know my own legs get sore if my shoes suddenly changed angles that much.

Anyway, here I thought the 4-pt was just to keep the rocks from going into the hoof walls!

Which comes first, a heel-first gait or a stretched toe? If the longer foot is a natural expression of her gait, is it really wise to change this? Isn't Mother Nature somehow compensating for something or other? Just a thought.
loosie likes this.

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