Go Barefoot or Keep Shoes - Page 3
   

       The Horse Forum > Keeping and Caring for Horses > Horse Health > Hoof Care

Go Barefoot or Keep Shoes

This is a discussion on Go Barefoot or Keep Shoes within the Hoof Care forums, part of the Horse Health category
  • Tools for paring equine frogs
  • The mirage of the natural foot

Like Tree33Likes

 
LinkBack Thread Tools
    04-13-2012, 11:37 PM
  #21
Trained
Quote:
Originally Posted by Horseman56    
Since there is no difference in how one trims a horse for "work" versus how one would trim a horse for pasture puff duty, it begs the question... are these "farriers" lacking in knowledge or is there another reason for them leaving their "comfort zone"?
IME farriers often trim a horse inappropriately, such as routinely paring sole & frog- thinning the 'armour plating'. This tends to make a horse more sensitive & less likely to be comfortable bare. It also does depend on the environment - work and paddock as to how I'd trim, as well as of course the state of the feet.

Quote:
You're probably familiar with the old adage, "When all you've got is a hammer, the whole world looks like a nail". Same thing applies to the barefoot agenda. "When all you've got in the toolbox is a trim, every horse must need no more than a trim".
I think the same can be said for many farriers, regarding shoes. Glad I've got a pretty full 'tool box'!

Quote:
Want proof? Want good, solid peer-reviewed science on the topic? Get a copy of "The Mirage of the Natural Foot", @2010, written by Dr. Michael E. Miller, MD, CJF, FWCF. In just 50 pages, Dr. Miller does an excellent job of debunking the entire performance "barefoot" movement in the context of a controlled study research project.
Haven't read it & will look into it, so can't comment on 'proof' or otherwise but I thought he was arguing specifically against the '4 point trim' in his research?
     
Sponsored Links
Advertisement
 
    04-14-2012, 01:13 AM
  #22
Started
I have asked some farriers about the "barefoot" idea. A LOT of to them squirm when you even mention the term. I find that you get a totally different reaction when you ask them if your horse needs shoes or not.

I forget exactly how I asked, but when I asked if Major would do well with a "barefoot" trim, then he humhawed around and told me we could try it if I wanted. 8 weeks later, I asked him if he thought Major needed shoes or not. He said that we live in a really rocky area and that he will most likely be lame more than he is sound.

To me that speaks volumes.
Gluey33 likes this.
     
    04-22-2012, 03:37 AM
  #23
Foal
My horse was barefoot and always had been when I got him at age 4. My regular farrier started trimming him and pretty quickly we had flaring of the walls on all feet. This is when I got to searching the internet and reading everything I could on barefoot trims. I realized my farrier was not trimming the walls enough and soon switched to a "barefoot" trimmer. Got him fixed within months but then she would never show up for appointments! I now use a farrier who does both and he's awesome. He spends over an hour trimming my horse so he can teach me along the way.

I do have a point to make here. It doesn't matter where you trained, or what your credentials are or if you just shoe or just do barefoot. Who you are and how you practice is what matters. Do you really know what you are doing? A piece of credentialing paper doesn't always prove that! Do you care? Do you read the latest research? Do you take time to educate owners?

In the field I'm in (RN) there are nurses I wouldn't let touch me and some I would let do surgery on me! They all had the same schooling and have a license to practice. Same goes for doctors and I think farriers too. It's about who you are. If you want to be great, you can be, no matter what your profession. So I hate just grouping "barefoot" people on one side and "farriers" on the other. Why don't we just call them "hoof practitioners". A good farrier should suggest barefoot if it is right for the horse. A good barefoot trimmer should suggest shoes if it's right for the horse. That's what it is all about in my book.

Karen
     
    04-22-2012, 11:27 PM
  #24
Trained
Quote:
Originally Posted by ktrolson    
In the field I'm in (RN) there are nurses I wouldn't let touch me and some I would let do surgery on me! They all had the same schooling and have a license to practice.
So true, that it is by no means just in the horse industry or farriery that it applies. But if people don't know better about alternatives & principles, then how can they know whether their 'expert' on hand is any good or not? Educating ourselves is so important!
     
    04-23-2012, 02:36 AM
  #25
Weanling
Quote:
Originally Posted by ktrolson    
I do have a point to make here. It doesn't matter where you trained, or what your credentials are or if you just shoe or just do barefoot.
While I understand your point, I would have to disagree in the context of farriery. Privately owned farrier schools in the United States are not subject to minimum state secondary educational requirements nor are any of them accredited. There is wide variation in the quality of these schools. Some are very good. Some are little more than "diploma mills". Where a farrier trains can make a huge difference in the skills and academic knowledge they acquire.

Quote:
Who you are and how you practice is what matters. Do you really know what you are doing? A piece of credentialing paper doesn't always prove that! Do you care? Do you read the latest research? Do you take time to educate owners?
I agree that all of these things matter a great deal. That said, the foundational training has to be there, regardless how well intentioned, ethical or hard working the practitioner. Farriery is not something that can easily be self taught. In fact, without a proper foundation of training, the process can be dangerous to the horse, the owner and the practitioner.

Quote:
In the field I'm in (RN) there are nurses I wouldn't let touch me and some I would let do surgery on me! They all had the same schooling and have a license to practice. Same goes for doctors and I think farriers too.
Ah, now you've made my point for me.

Yes! Nurses, doctors and other professionals are, to a large extent, subject to much the same schooling and licensing. While there are certainly broad variations in that schooling and licensing requirement, there are also well recognized minimal standards that every graduate must complete in any given state.

Those same "standards" and certainly licensing are absolutely NOT available or even required of farriers. That's a huge and critical difference! Even the certifications vary to some extent. The AFA is the only credentialing authority that provides a reasonable approximation of objective examination. No farriers are required to stand for those exams. They are completely voluntary and probably one of the better gauges by which horse owners can measure at least a minimum of practitioner skill.

Personally, I wish state licensing was required and that said licensing required AFA certification for any practicing farrier. It still doesn't guarantee great quality, but it would guarantee the person had to meet some minimum standard at least once in their life.

Quote:
It's about who you are. If you want to be great, you can be, no matter what your profession. So I hate just grouping "barefoot" people on one side and "farriers" on the other. Why don't we just call them "hoof practitioners"?
There's a good reason why we don't lump trimmers and farriers into a single category of practice. The reason is because the training and service delivery expectation levels are vastly different.

While both a trimmer and a farrier could conceivably possess the same level of academic knowledge, the trimmer will, by definition, fall vastly short in the practical application of that knowledge. Even the very best trimmer will simply not have the tools, the skill or the experience to do anything except trim a horse. At best, their toolset and practical skill application is limited to the first two weeks curriculum of even the worst farriery schools.

There's nothing personal about such observations. It is simply an objective, measurable, irrefutable fact.

Quote:
A good farrier should suggest barefoot if it is right for the horse.
No need to suggest a farrier "should" do this. I believe it would be impossible to find a full service farrier that doesn't carry barefoot horses on their books. All farriers suggest barefoot if it is either appropriate or simply required by the owner. In fact, many farriers, particularly part-timers, tend more barefoot horses than shod.

The salient point is that farriers can and do attend both barefoot and shod horses because... they can. A professional farrier should and is expected to have the knowledge, the tools and the skill to do both.

Quote:
A good barefoot trimmer should suggest shoes if it's right for the horse.
They can't.

Why?

Because by definition, both their practice and marketing agenda is based on a flawed philosophy that shoeing a domesticated horse is in all circumstances deleterious to the health, performance and well being of the animal.

You cannot build a business around such philosophy then recommend a horse may need shoes. Shoeing a horse is either deleterious or it is not. Either the horse can remain sound and meet performance expectations while barefoot, or the philosophy/marketing is false.

So if they cannot recommend horseshoes, how can they "save face" with the customer who pays the bills?

Hoof boots.

Why do they recommend hoof boots in such situations?

Because they possess neither the skill, the experience or the tools to shoe a horse.

In other words, they get to keep trimming the horse and collecting a paycheck while you, the horse owner, get to also pay for and perform the labor associated with applying what is basically... a rubber horseshoe.

How did you get stuck doing this? Because it's the only way the practitioner can keep you as a customer. They're hoping the hoof boot solves the problem and they're also hoping you won't notice or mention that putting a rubber boot on a horse seems contrary to the whole "natural is better" philosophy.

After all, we've yet to see a mare deliver a foal wearing hoof boots nor have I noticed any feral horse herds running the Otera Basins of New Mexico in a pair of Easyboot Epics.

Quote:
That's what it is all about in my book.
Might want to edit that book. What it's really about are some people that want to earn a paycheck trimming horses but either can't or don't want to invest the money, energy and time in learning the much harder part of managing the domestic horses hoofcare needs. Worse, our government allows them to get away with it. Even worse still, horse owners allow them to get away with it.

It's akin to someone dropping out of medical school in the first year but still insisting they should be allowed to practice medicine because all anyone ever needs is an aspirin.

The only reason the scam works is because a lot of horses can, in fact, get by with nothing but a trim. Most of that is because the majority of horse owners don't really ask much of their animals. Raise the performance stakes and that changes quickly. Let something go wrong and it changes even faster.

Cheers,
Mark
waresbear and hayburner like this.
     
    04-23-2012, 09:52 PM
  #26
Trained
Quote:
Originally Posted by Horseman56    
While I understand your point, I would have to disagree in the context of farriery.... There is wide variation in the quality of these schools. Some are very good. Some are little more than "diploma mills". Where a farrier trains can make a huge difference in the skills and academic knowledge they acquire.
I don't know that anyone would disagree that where/how someone trained(whatever industry) can make a difference to their skill & knowledge - that's a no brainer. But by disagreeing with the whole point you're saying you believe that in regard to farriery(unique to any other profession in the world), everyone coming out of a certain 'school' are all necessarily just as good as eachother, that there cannot be good farriers come from 'bad' schools or vice versa. That's just silly IMO.

Quote:
You cannot build a business around such philosophy then recommend a horse may need shoes. Shoeing a horse is either deleterious or it is not. Either the horse can remain sound and meet performance expectations while barefoot, or the philosophy/marketing is false.
You keep spouting this kind of rot with any rationality it seems. You seem to like to ignore(or are just ignorant of) so many details of this 'philosophy' that you claim to know so intimately.

Firstly, while *many* trimmers (haven't a clue of the percentage, let alone making wild assumptions about 'all of them' or such) may not consider conventional rims in any circumstance whatsoever, there are many who don't believe horseshoes are necessarily or regardless of circumstances always the worst thing in the world. Whether it's because they believe they're not necessarily always 'deleterious', or whether they believe in some situations they're the better 'evil', it's just lacking logic to just assume that it all adds up to 'false marketing' or other rubbish.

Obviously by your following comments, you believe that hoof boots & such are only a 'marketing ploy' and that horses 'should' either go completely bare, regardless of situation, or be shod conventionally. I personally think there are way too many shades of grey in this world and it's irrational to ignore half the story along with any alternatives or possibilities and insist on seeing nothing but black & white. It sounds like you're seeing all the world as a nail, as the saying goes.

Quote:
they're also hoping you won't notice or mention that putting a rubber boot on a horse seems contrary to the whole "natural is better" philosophy.
Please explain how you come to the conclusion that just because someone believes that horses are better off without conventional rims, this means they necessarily must go bare and that using any other (non- or less 'deleterious' form of protection) is contradictory to whatever philosophy 'we' uphold??

Quote:
After all, we've yet to see a mare deliver a foal wearing hoof boots nor have I noticed any feral horse herds running the Otera Basins of New Mexico in a pair of Easyboot Epics.
Can't understand how that's relevant to any argument unless you've seen a horse born in shoes, or believe the ferals don't cope without them(because they haven't got the cushy lifestyle of a domestic pet??)

Quote:
The only reason the scam works is because a lot of horses can, in fact, get by with nothing but a trim. Most of that is because the majority of horse owners don't really ask much of their animals. Raise the performance stakes and that changes quickly.
I am then led to conclude you believe the multitude of experiences & evidence to the contrary(including by vets & farriers) must be all just lies? All just part of the big scam that so many thousands world wide have been stupid enough to be sucked into & been deluded into seeing positive results?? Your opinion is your prerogative but if you're going to make these accusations publicly, at least have the courtesy(& sense, if you truly care about people making the best decisions for their horses) to back it up.

I keep asking for any science, to back up all these noises & I'm still waiting. The ominous silence whenever I ask doesn't give me great confidence that your assumptions are based on anything aside from anecdotes & bias. You like to discount any evidence/science that even questions your beliefs(and granted, there is some very questionable 'science' out there), and it would help qualify your view to see some from your 'side of the fence'.
Magaidh likes this.
     
    04-28-2012, 03:28 AM
  #27
Foal
My horse has been barefoot for over 2 years now. It started when I first rescued him... he was kept in a straight stall for 2 years with no hoof care and the stall was never cleaned. Needless to say he was a mess when I got him. He literally had NO frogs and his hooves were crumbling from the inside out. I'll let the pictures tell the story... I'll try to get more pics when the farrier comes out in a week or two since I really haven't taken any current pictures of his progress lately..

The beginning... still brings tears to my eyes... He was in so much pain!


His first trim: The pink is all bruising... July 2010




August 2010: had to go with a special wrap because we couldn't keep his hooves from breaking apart



10/2010: the "dent" looking area is where the new growth is finally coming in a bit stronger although not perfect yet...


4/2012: Trail riding barefoot!!! Last farrier report said his back hooves are like rocks and she had trouble trimming his frogs. His front hooves are almost normal hardness! (can't really see much in the pictures but the first one is my boyfriend riding-his second time ever on a horse-with Sir Galahad barefoot. You can see by the pics the terrain is quite rocky where we are...



This pic was taken a couple days ago (photo shopped his eye because my sister sucks at photography and it was glowing to the point that the whole picture was almost too dark)

     
    04-28-2012, 04:28 AM
  #28
Trained
Did you put your boyfriend on a female's saddle SirGalahad?? Or perhaps he was attempting a sliding halt?? Nice horse, pity about his hairstyle tho
     
    04-28-2012, 04:36 AM
  #29
Foal
Quote:
Originally Posted by loosie    
Did you put your boyfriend on a female's saddle SirGalahad?? Or perhaps he was attempting a sliding halt?? Nice horse, pity about his hairstyle tho
He didn't know how to balance quite right and was worried about the horse doing something that would cause him to hurt certain parts of his anatomy if he sat up straight.

Sir Galahad's mane was quite long but looked stringy. I would have left it if one of the girls at the farm didn't want to try showing him this summer. I had to go back to how I used to do things when I was a 4-H competitor lol I used to show a Standardbred with a long flowing mane and always qualified for states in Grooming and Showmanship. I never went because the week after was Standardbred Nationals and I couldn't afford both shows... I'm definitely letting Sir Galahad's grow out but I'm going to keep up with it this time so it grows healthy and long. I'm hoping it's much longer by August 4th (the day of the show) which I don't think I'll have any problems because of all the hoof and coat supplements he gets. His mane and tail grow like weeds!!!
     
    04-28-2012, 02:26 PM
  #30
Foal
Going barefoot is the best thing to do. If your horse get ouchy or sore, get it a set of hoof boots with some padding. Shoes are one of the worst things you can do for your horse. If you are riding on rough ground get a pair of boots! Here is a thermo picture showing blood flow in legs with shoes and legs without shoes. The Amazing Horse Hoof-Think Like a Horse-Rick Gore Horsemanship
     

Thread Tools

Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
Barefoot v. Shoes jillybean19 Endurance Riding 4 04-11-2012 08:55 PM
shoes vs barefoot triggetpony Horse Health 16 06-30-2011 04:13 PM
Shoes vs. Barefoot White Foot Horse Health 36 07-04-2009 02:29 PM
Going from shoes to barefoot appylover31803 Horse Health 8 06-09-2009 01:11 PM



All times are GMT -4. The time now is 10:40 AM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.5
Copyright ©2000 - 2014, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
Search Engine Friendly URLs by vBSEO 3.6.0