Hoof Geeks: Froggy question
 
 

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Hoof Geeks: Froggy question

This is a discussion on Hoof Geeks: Froggy question within the Hoof Care forums, part of the Horse Health category
  • Is the frog of a horse like a heart
  • Hoof geek

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    10-13-2013, 10:14 PM
  #1
Started
Hoof Geeks: Froggy question

Robert Bowker says that the frog should rest on the ground at standstill; that one shouldn't be able to push a thin ruler under it. If the frog pumps blood back to heart upon taking a step (at any gait), wouldn't the constant, milder pressure on it at standstill result in a weird halfway-to-middling return of blood to the heart?

Also, what are the proper lengths of other hoof parts, as far as adjacencies to the ground? (Sole, I know we've got disagreement among the "experts", but how about bars & seat of corn, or heels relative to wall?)

TIA!
     
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    10-14-2013, 09:22 PM
  #2
Yearling
Sheesh! There are quite a few different schools of thought on all this. My goal is to have the frogs touch the ground during loading/stride. I do my bars so they don't lay over, or very little. With the heels I only take them back as far as the angle is still positive. Seats of corn I clean out so the little areas don't get jammed up. The heel bulbs-I don't like them squished. My quarters are off the ground by about a quarter's width at the most.

What about you Northern? How do you like your horse(s) feet done?
     
    10-15-2013, 07:45 PM
  #3
Weanling
Frog Trim

The Bars

Two fine articles, frog and bar related.
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    10-15-2013, 08:22 PM
  #4
Started
Quote:
Originally Posted by princessfluffybritches    
Sheesh! I don't mean to frustrate you, princess! I'm just a hoof gunsel asking questions... With the heels I only take them back as far as the angle is still positive.
I'm not clear on what you mean by this; feel free to elaborate. I feel pretty good that I understood your other explanations.
     
    10-15-2013, 09:47 PM
  #5
Trained
Quote:
Originally Posted by Northern    
If the frog pumps blood back to heart upon taking a step (at any gait), wouldn't the constant, milder pressure on it at standstill result in a weird halfway-to-middling return of blood to the heart?
Yes, if the frog did act as a pump(the horse has five hearts theory??) then constant pressure(or lack of) would likely affect this.

Quote:
Also, what are the proper lengths of other hoof parts, as far as adjacencies to the ground? (Sole, I know we've got disagreement among the "experts", but how about bars & seat of corn, or heels relative to wall?)
It depends. But basically, that the wall is trimmed according to the sole plane, including heels & bars. That would mean the heels aren't high enough to take the frog out of commission. I think heels can be trickier to apply 'rules' to though, as comfort is absolutely important IMO & sometimes higher heels can be the 'better evil' than putting a sensitive frog on the ground.
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    10-16-2013, 03:24 AM
  #6
Started
"Yes, upon further reading..." lol! I find that the old "frog is a pump" has been replaced by a hydraulic mechanism, with the blood being the fluid.

Many concur at this point that the blood is sent back to the heart upon the horse's lifting of the hoof, rather than the weighting of it, as well, which renders my question entirely obsolete - lol!
     
    10-16-2013, 05:55 PM
  #7
Weanling
Quote:
Robert Bowker says that the frog should rest on the ground at standstill; that one shouldn't be able to push a thin ruler under it. If the frog pumps blood back to heart upon taking a step (at any gait), wouldn't the constant, milder pressure on it at standstill result in a weird halfway-to-middling return of blood to the heart?
It is rarely constant. Horses are constantly shifting their weight slightly even if they are not actually picking up the foot. Studies of horses just standing at rest for long periods on computerized mats have proven it. ,
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    10-17-2013, 12:52 AM
  #8
Green Broke
I think frog contact is probably a result of environmental factors. Not all living environments are the same, so not all hooves are going to look the same on the bottom.

Plus, horses in nature don't live on a perfectly flat, hard surface. They are almost always going to get frog stimulation when barefoot in a natural environment with every step. To keep the frog from getting any stimulation at all, you would probably have to shoe the horse with pads without any packing and then keep them walking on a man-made, flat surface.

So I don't fret about the frogs when I trim. I just cut off the hanging bits and keep them free of thrush. Other than that, I don't worry about the frogs at all as far as how long they are or if they reach the ground.

Well, I take that back. I don't want the heels to get too long, because if they do then the foot contracts and the frogs will be way high up in the foot. But I don't have any horses at the moment with heels that are contracted like that. But if I did, they would have a lot more going on with the foot that just the frog being too high.
     
    10-17-2013, 01:02 AM
  #9
Green Broke
Quote:
Originally Posted by princessfluffybritches    
With the heels I only take them back as far as the angle is still positive.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Northern    
I'm not clear on what you mean by this; feel free to elaborate. I feel pretty good that I understood your other explanations.
I'm not princessfluffybritches, but I just wanted to elaborate on the positive angle notion.

There are such things as positive and negative coffin bone angles. Sometimes you can't see this without an x-ray, but sometimes it is visible from the outside of the hoof by the way the foot is growing.

For instance, if you kept lowering and lowering the heels, you could go from a positive or neutral coffin bone angle to a negative coffin bone angle. That would be bad....it would strain the horse's tendons and probably cause other damage as well.

Here, I just Googled it and found a webpage that can explain things better than I can:

COLLAPSED HEELS - The Natural Hoof - Barefoot Horse Riding
     
    10-17-2013, 05:00 AM
  #10
Trained
^^I think it's unlikely to cause a negative palmar/plantar angle from alone... unless you do a Strasser type trim & remove heels all together. If you don't invade the sole plane, don't allow the toes to get too long, I think negative plane is not a big issue.
     

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