The Horse Forum banner
Status
Not open for further replies.

Hoof problems..

14K views 36 replies 14 participants last post by  Horse Hippie 
#1 ·
Hey,
I haven't been around much and I only have about five minutes but I have a really important question.

As some of you may know, Indy did not have the greatest feet when I got him. His back feet are about as close to perfect as you can get but his fronts are horrible. Each have a vertical crack from bottom to top. The right one (when facing him) has two. The farrier and vet have both said that they are nothing to worry about (not deep, do not go past the hoof, no heat [and i check that constantly], no bleeding, no swelling, no abnormalities) but I am starting to get worried. He is getting SmartPak Farrier's Formula Double Concentrate once a day and I the vet also recommended a cream to help keep them from drying out.

He has been getting the SmartPak for about... six months now. He lives outside and it is rather muddy on one half of his field but I clean out/clean the outer hoof wall everyday.

They have gotten better and better on a monthly basis. However, he had his feet done on Monday and yesterday/today I noticed two things. One, his back feet seem to have been trimmed shorter then usual. Last time he had his feet done he was sore for about a week from being trimmed too short all around. This time he is not sore or ouchy or anything but they still look short to me. They are also shorter then the fronts which I have never noticed before. The farrier did however put the shoes on farther back (as directed by the vet) to support the heel more.

The other thing is that he seems to have split open the crack on his right front (when facing him). It is wider and deeper then it was on Sunday before he was re-shod. Granted it is not horrible but I had the vet out and she said that I should just keep an eye on it and make sure it didn't get worse.

My question is, what should I do about the crack?

I have wanted to go barefoot with him for a while but the farrier has said that it is not a possibility at this time as his hoof walls are to weak.
I want to bring in a professional barefoot trimmer and see what they say because Indy has gone barefoot for up to two weeks before (at the longest stretch) and he seemed fine to me. Does anyone know of any barefoot farriers in western CT that they can recommend?

I am really worried about the crack... it was finally getting better and now it's worse then before...

Thanks!
 
See less See more
#2 ·
Maybe you need a new farrier? When I got my horse, she had a huge chunk missing out of her front left hoof and I changed farriers, and she doesn't have a crack anymore. I don't know much about farrier work, she says she rounds her toes more than usual to keep pressure off of them to prevent more cracks, and she said something about her roll over or break over or whatever... and she also goes barefoot in the winter without a crack reoccurring.

I currently have her on Horseshoer's Secret and it's done WONDERS. It takes about 3 months before you see the new growth, but everyone I know who uses it absolutely swears by it. I've also heard that many hoof creams dry the hoof out as opposed to moisturizing it. I hear that Turpentine is better. Of course, that's just what I hear.

Can you get pictures?
 
#5 ·
Alright so here are the pictures. If I can figure out how to do it... Sorry it took so long things have been crazy around here.

This was his hoof a couple weeks ago. For him, it was pretty darn good.


Same hoof [again]


Other side


Also the other side


Alright now these are from two days ago which was two days after he saw the farrier. Keep in mind there was NO heat, NO soreness on the outside or inside, and no reaction when I poked at his hooves. He trotted sound over pavement and w/t/c fine under saddle (about a fifteen minute ride to see how he was; I didn't want to over do it just in case).








This one was wet because I hosed off his legs




What do you guys think I should do? Again, he is getting a supplement in his feed, he is getting a cream to keep his feet from getting dried out (both prescribed by the vet). He does stand in mud when it rains as he lives outside. Half his pasture turns to mud and the other half stays dry but I usually find him in the mud. There is no way for me to change where he is because everywhere else is ALL mud. I'm trying to find a barefoot farrier but everyone I know who goes barefoot uses the same guy and just has him trim their horses. I went down the street and asked but none of the horses at the barn go barefoot.

If you know of anyone in CT or in NY near CT please PM me and I can give a tiny bit more information about my location.

Thanks!
 
#6 ·
Get the shoes off! They are causing the problem. The hoof can not expand and contract with it on. Get the book Making natural hoof care work for you by Pete Ramey. The back hooves look good because they are not shod. With a shoe a hoof has no rounded natural break over. A natural trim is different from a barefoot trim by a regular farrier. My Quarter horse had a deep quarter crack and the vets recommended bar shoes with pads which I did and was the worst thing to do! Get this book it will change every thing for you. google Pete Ramey and Jaime Jackson for their websites it will show pics of how a hoof should be trimmed - no flares or long toes. My AQHA now has the best looking hooves no cracks - they look like smooth stone and as strong nothing causes him to be ouchy anymore!
 
#7 ·
In the 2nd to last pic, it looks like the crack has extended into a horizontal coronary problem. Does he have WLD? Would be interesting to see the bottom of his feet, though we probably won't be able to see the white line much. Also a side view.

I know I'm a barefoot nut, but just LOOK at what the shoes are doing -- everywhere there is a nail there is a crack or damage and side clips have been added to hold the shoes on. If there is any good wall, let's just put another nail in there and weaken the wall another inch higher. This ISN'T working! Time for a new tactic.

There is nothing wrong at all with being in a dry environment. Hooves are designed for that. I would avoid the cream -- it may be making things worse rather than better, unless the cream is only being applied to the coronary band.

These cracks are all fixable by going barefoot. It will take time. Period. Those cracks have to grow out and there is no other fix. It will be 6 months to a year depending on how fast his hooves grow before the cracks will be gone.

It would be nice for Barefoothooves to have a go at that one pic with the crack maybe going across the coronary band. I have no experience with that. Barefoothooves are you out there?

Ask around more and try the internet to find a barefoot trimmer / advocate near you. Seriously -- this horse is just screaming to go without shoes in my opinion.
 
#8 ·
Chella: Don't mean to sound snippy (so please don't take it the wrong way!), but he is shod on his backs. I am not sure why the backs are better then the fronts, I would be interested in finding that out. Do you do your horses feet yourself?

northernmama: If he had WLD would the farrier have said something? As I mentioned in an earlier post I have never felt any heat (before or after being worked) in any part of his hooves, he is not lame, he is not sore, does not have any problems with hoof testers, no flattening of the sole or dishing anywhere, and no hollow sound when tapped with numerous items. The hoof actually feels pretty solid (despite all the cracks) and I understand that is probably hard to believe considering what they look like.

I am only applying the cream to the coronary band.

Thank you for all the help!

Is it okay to ride him when his feet are in this condition?

Thanks!
 
#11 ·
northernmama: If he had WLD would the farrier have said something? As I mentioned in an earlier post I have never felt any heat (before or after being worked) in any part of his hooves, he is not lame, he is not sore, does not have any problems with hoof testers, no flattening of the sole or dishing anywhere, and no hollow sound when tapped with numerous items. The hoof actually feels pretty solid (despite all the cracks) and I understand that is probably hard to believe considering what they look like.

I am only applying the cream to the coronary band.

Thank you for all the help!

Is it okay to ride him when his feet are in this condition?

Thanks!
Your farrier may or may not have said something. IMO, it is obvious that this farrier lacks some skill somewhere -- whether it's communication, open-mindedness or something more technical.

WLD does not always show pain symptoms until very far advanced. The hoof may feel solid to you, but a strong hoof is stronger than a steel shoe, so without experience you may not be able to tell how strong that foot really is or isn't. If your horse isn't lame, you could ride him, but I, personally, wouldn't do more than a walk until this situation is properly assessed and in positive treatment. Heartache may be around the corner.

I'm glad to hear you are looking after this. Please do everything in your power to get another farrier / trimmer out there to look at him.
 
#10 ·
I agree, shoes need to GO! Those fronts need lower heals, backed up toes, and the front edge should be rounded to take ALL of the pressure off of it when he walks. My mare gets cracks up the front too, and this type of trimming works to help them grow out and prevent them from getting worse.

Having him barefoot will help his walls grow in stronger. Use some Durasole on the bottoms of his feet to toughen them up and keep him from getting ouchy. Apply it every other day for 2-3 weeks, then two to three times a week after that. STOP use creams. All they do is make the hoof look nicer. If he's getting proper nutrition, you don't need them. I would add some flax to his diet, Omega Horseshine or GrandCoat, or switch the hoof supplement to a double dose of BioFlax. I use a custom blend from horsetech.com of BioFlax plus extra flax. It works very well!

Try to find a barefoot trimmer in your area, one that uses a Ramey-type method if possible.
Pete Ramey hoof care heals founder in horse’s navicular disease farrier
American Hoof Association

Or you can learn how to do it yourself. I do my own horses (with checks from a professional once or twice a year) and find it every rewarding. I learned on my own from a local trimmer plus Ramey's books and other online resources. Ramey recommends this school if you can afford it and it's not too far from you.
The Equine Sciences Academy
 
#12 ·
not snippy at all just concern for your horse :)! I have done my horses feet before, I have 4 ,and all though I can nip and file and take off the flares I do not trust myself to balance them correctly. Usually back feet are shorter this could explain why they fair a little better the natural trim the hooves are typically (not always) 3 to 3 1/2 inches long. More weight is also on the front hooves. I am so against shoes. My AQHA had 2 abcesses and a quarter crack until I pulled the shoes against vet and previous farriers advice. I think I saved my horses life. His whole personality changed as his feet healed he went from dangerous and cranky to a big Teddy!
 
#14 ·
I got the new pictures they are uploading as I type this. I will post them once they are finished. I emailed a farrier and I left a message for another, we will see what responses I get back.

Qtswede: I got the pictures they will be up in about fifteen minutes. Are you swedish by the way?

luvs2ride1979: The farrier was instructed by the vet to round the toe and move the shoes farther back to support the bulb about 3 months ago. Indy's feet were doing extremely well with this. It would appear that he has forgotten to do it this time? Question for you. The supplement I have him on now seems to have been working wonders for his feet. Could that just have been the appearance on the outside? There was such a noticeable difference from when I got him.

northernmama: I emailed one guy and called the guy that the barn down the road uses. I have had no luck finding anyone who is a "barefoot trimmer" but I do not know anything about these two men other then they are recommended by other riders in the area. When I hear back from them I will ask them. I figure that at this point it doesn't really matter if they are or not, I just need to get someone else out to look at him.

Chella: I am glad to hear that you did not think I was being snippy :] The one thing I dislike about forums is that it is hard to really know for sure how someone meant for something to be said in certain situations. I am wondering if this may have something to do with his behavioral issues (I have a thread titled behavioral issues under horse training from a while back). Maybe he is in pain and I am not realizing it. Some days he will be the sweetest boy and some days it will be like trying to ride a bronc. He vetted fine about two months ago when I was trying to get to the bottom of it and she was even impressed with how much better his feet are doing. He lives outside 24/7 365. I strongly believe that horses that are kept outside (granted they are healthy enough) are much healthier then those kept stalled every day. I would LOVE to be able to trim his feet, that would be very interesting.

Okay here are the pictures from today. I had them organized into left front and right front but my computer scrambled them. I hope it doesn't make to much of a difference.





















 
#15 ·
Here are some pictures of underneath his hoof to



















ETA PLEASE READ I forgot to mention that I have never noticed the underside of his hoof being white like that until this week. When I completely clean out the inside of his hoof that is what happens and it kind of crumbles if I scrape at it, like powder almost. When I touch it nothing happens. The underside of his hind hooves are black and I thought that the fronts were too.
 
#17 ·
The white on his soles is normal -- it is just shedding out. Telling us that he needs it to be scraped out for him because our domesticated horses have too easy of a time in their fancy-fandangled paddocks.

In a nutshell -- follow up on those other farriers. Your horses feet need care other than what they are getting. The angles are off, the heels are forward. Also, see that upside down "V"?? wait -- let me photoshop it...
 
#18 · (Edited)
That red line should be straight -- not angled. It's telling you that your horse is trying really hard to grow hoof wall and put his frog on the ground, but since the shoes are there the walls are pushing up on the soft tissue as the frog is desperately trying to push down. I can't seem to word this properly, but your horse wants to do all the right things and the shoes are preventing it.

So, loose the shoes, the walls can grow back healthy and be trimmed with proper angles, lower and backed heels, while the frog can make contact with the ground and spread and grow out. I think your girl would turn around pretty fast with proper care.

Beside is a great pic of what it should look like:
 

Attachments

#19 ·
The white chalky stuff is what the horse is trying to sluff off. I am not an expert but her heels look underun. Go to a book store and get Pete Rameys book it is very easy to read and understand. Call your vet maybe they can recommend a natural barefoot trimmer in the area or call outside your area to a bordering city vet for a referral. Her behavior good very well be related to her feet. I know where you are at, I was there 2 yrs ago. Your horse is very lucky to have you as her person,
 
#20 ·
northernmama: Wow that was great! Thank you for showing me that! I can't believe that red line is supposed to be straight... What a difference! I have people telling me that if I take his shoes off the wall is going to crumble and he will get stone bruises and be sore and unrideable forever. What do you think of that? I just replied that it would be better for him to get used to that and me not be able to ride for a while then to keep nailing nails back into a CLEARLY distraught hoof. Do you think I will be unable to ride for a while? We have sand in the outside and a very soft dirt on the inside. His paddock is part grass part dirt and at the moment part mud.

Chella: Good call on the heels being under-run. The vet asked the farrier to extend the shoes farther back to support them until they can grow out again. Although, I think I mis-worded that, but she definitely asked him to change something because of the heels being under-run. I feel horrible not being able to remember what it was... hm... Thank you!


Thanks for all the help, especially from you two! I will keep you posted on whether I hear back from these other guys or what happens.
 
#25 ·
northernmama: Wow that was great! Thank you for showing me that! I can't believe that red line is supposed to be straight... What a difference! I have people telling me that if I take his shoes off the wall is going to crumble and he will get stone bruises and be sore and unrideable forever. What do you think of that? I just replied that it would be better for him to get used to that and me not be able to ride for a while then to keep nailing nails back into a CLEARLY distraught hoof. Do you think I will be unable to ride for a while? We have sand in the outside and a very soft dirt on the inside. His paddock is part grass part dirt and at the moment part mud.
Yup, she did a great job with the illustrations.

If you take the shoes off, he will be sore, for a while, and you may have to give him a break from riding. There's no way around that. However, taking the shoes off will help him grow MORE wall and healthier feet in the long run. Using Durasol and maybe riding with hoof boots will help his transition, and may keep him riding sound right away. If you can find a good barefoot trimmer and hang in there, his feet WILL improve.

Question for you. The supplement I have him on now seems to have been working wonders for his feet. Could that just have been the appearance on the outside? There was such a noticeable difference from when I got him.

Farrier's Formula works, but I think adding flax will help even more. You can keep him on it and add the Omega Horseshine if you don't want to change things too much. The flax will help keep the hoof from drying out, so you won't need the topical creams. You might think about putting him on a more natural diet as well; no grains, no feed, just hay, alfalfa pellets, and a vitamin supplement. This kind of diet helped improve my horses' feet and overall well being even more! The sugars and starches in many feeds and grains can really mess up a horse's metabolism, and it will show in the feet (as well as behavior for some).
 
#21 ·
I would see if your vet would sell you some formaldehyde and iodine (50/50 mix) so you can spray it on the cracks and on the soles. It will help combat fungus and bacteria that is growing up in there. Don't let it come in contact with the skin as it is very irritating.....don't panic if it does get on there because it does happen and none of mine have shown any injury from the occasions it has run quicker than I anticpated. I have also gotten it on my skin with no ill-effects. Apply it once weekly with a spray bottle.

I like dac's hoof supplement. Hoof Health - Omega Horse Solutions
 
#22 ·
Solo, his walls will get stronger, not weaker by going barefoot, and his soles will get tougher. But it does take time. Think of going barefoot yourself as a little kid -- those first few times across the gravel driveway in the spring were killers, but by June you don't even notice right? That's because your feet callous. So does a horse's sole. And the more wear on the walls, the more they will grow and the stronger they will get. Again, though, it does take time. If he's a bit ouchy, lots of people use hoof boots. Although I have transitioned four horses and none of them were ever more sore without their shoes -- right from the start they were fine. Well, wait, yes they were a bit ouchy on the gravel for a couple of days. I was also in the training process for each of them at the same time, so they were just being led around anyway. Within a week though there was no difference on any terrain. But all horses are different. Just keep paying the good attention to yours.

People are probably telling you the walls will crumble because what does happen is that if the hooves are allowed to grow too long they begin to "self-trim" and chips will break off. You want to avoid that and regular care will see to it for you. You sound very interested and that's so nice to hear. Why not check out some barefoot sites on the 'net? There are lots of them. Two very reputable sites are www.hoofrehab.com and www.jaime-jackson.com . I personally go more for the first site, but jaime jackson has done oodles of research and is very informative.

Barrelracer brought up a good point about preventing bacteria growth, although I don't go for the formaldehyde. I've never used it. Iodine, yes. I have also used 50/50 cider vinegar and water, a weak chlorine solution (maybe 10/90) and peroxide. I tend to use only the cider vinegar one repeatedly -- daily if needed. The others only once every couple of weeks if really needed as they do kill all the good stuff along with the bad. Betadine (iodine and sugar) is popular also.

I'll tell you that this works. My girl Lisa's feet are now a full inch wider than they were when she came and probably about 2 inches shorter! I kept her old shoes as a reminder of what people do without thinking. So keep your horses old shoes and check it out in a month or two. Then keep the shoes and next year when you are advocating barefoot to others, you'll have a demostration readily available! OK, ok... I'm getting a bit carried away now... I'll go calm down...

Let us know what comes of this please.
 
#23 ·
One thing that has worked well for my horses with cracks is that my blacksmith actually opens up the crack so that I can clean it out. He'll use a little dremel and just open it so I can get a horseshoe nail in there to clean it. Also, my horses are barefoot, when a crack happens, he will nip a notch back right on the crack at the wall so that the wall where the crack is bears little pressure on the crack. All have grown out when he does this.
 
#24 ·
Northernmama is right they are sometimes ouchy at first like if your nail is long and then all of a sudden short. Keep a horse file on hand to catch chips before they peel off. You can ride in soft dirt , grass or with the boots. She is also right about the hooves getting bigger. My AQHA is 16 hh and 1300lbs and had very small feet for his body they have gotten wider and shorter and now look well porportioned for his body! Please keep us posted I cant wait to watch his transition.
 
#26 ·
Barelracer Up: Thank you for the suggestion! I am going to call the vet and see what she says in terms of of what I should do with his diet and what I should put on his feet.

northernmama: I love going barefoot! Hopefully Indy would feel the same way. We actually don't have gravel or anything on the property, it is all grass, sand and really fine dirt that feels good to walk on. The only cement is in the big barn (where he never goes anyway) and the washing rack which can be avoided if necessary. Indy actually went barefoot for about three weeks last summer when he threw all four shoes (in two days!!!) and the farrier could not come out due to a family emergency or something like that (I don't remember the exact cause). He didn't miss a beat and I even ended up working him/riding him the same as I normally do because he gets a little nutty after two days off. The vet came out and told me that as long as I started with minimal bits of work he would be fine and by the middle of week three we were doing everything like normal (at this stage in his training it was just w/t/c. We are still just working on w/t/c simple lead changes and transitions, leg yields, shoulders in, disengaging his hind quarters et cetera. Hopefully by the end of the summer we will be doing some low jumping because as you may have seen in the critique section, he seems to have a little bit of a talent for jumping). At that point I was using the cider vinegar water mix and it seemed to have helped. Is that something you would recommend starting up again?

Of course I will keep you all updated! I am thinking of starting a horse journal for Indy so that I don't have to keep making hundreds of new threads (okay maybe not quite HUNDREDS...) and only making the new ones when I have an URGENT question such as this one. I love posting pictures and things. Before and after pictures! YES!

7ponies: That is an interesting method, thanks for sharing it! I have not heard of this before but I will see what my farrier has to say about it. Thanks!

Chella: At the barn where he is they have their own set of "farriers equipment" so theoretically I could go out there and trim/shoe him whenever I want to. Not that I would but down the line maybe I will learn to do it myself! Thats a smart idea about catching the chips before they peel off. Thanks!

luvs2ride1979: At this point if he has to take a month off of riding or more, fine. What's one month compared to the rest of his life and mine? We could probably use some extensive groundwork training. I just want his feet to get better! No hooves no horse.

You were talking about switching him to just hay, alfalfa pellets, and a vitamin supplement. Right now I don't necessarily ride him hard but I do ride him a lot. Would that type of diet be okay for him? Also, are alfalfa pellets expensive? The vet really likes the way his diet is set up now but I will also bring this up when I talk to her about what I can use on his feet. Thanks!


Well the good news is that the first guy I emailed got back to me and he sounds wonderful. He knows a lot, has some great recommendations, isn't to far away, and is not overly priced. He may be coming out as soon as tomorrow! I am sending him the pictures of Indy's feet and we will see what he says! I will keep you all updated, thanks so much!
 
#27 ·
luvs2ride1979: At this point if he has to take a month off of riding or more, fine. What's one month compared to the rest of his life and mine? We could probably use some extensive groundwork training. I just want his feet to get better! No hooves no horse.

You were talking about switching him to just hay, alfalfa pellets, and a vitamin supplement. Right now I don't necessarily ride him hard but I do ride him a lot. Would that type of diet be okay for him? Also, are alfalfa pellets expensive? The vet really likes the way his diet is set up now but I will also bring this up when I talk to her about what I can use on his feet. Thanks!
As long as he's getting a lot of GOOD quality hay, then he should only need 1-4 lbs of Alfalfa pellets plus 1/2 cup of flax or rice bran to keep his weight up. Alfalfa pellets are calorie dense and high in quality, muscle building protein. My "hard keeper" TBxArab maintains well on 25 lbs of bermuda a day with 1.5 lbs of alfalfa pellets.

A grain-free diet promotes hoof health and a healthy metabolism. It's like people giving up on refined and artificial sweeteners and refined flour. We (would) be much healthier and fitter, though who can stick with that, lol. Thankfully, our horses only have access to the foods we want them to have, so we can keep them healthier and from ruining their diets ;-).

If he loses weight, then you can increase the flax or rice bran to 1 cup, the alfalfa pellets to 6 lbs, and add a probiotic like Source Focus WT. Once his weight levels out, you can slowly reduce his feed as his body and metabolism adjusts to the new diet. Even in hard work, my horses can maintain on just 2-2.5 lbs of Alfalfa pellets a day, along with 1/2 to 1 cup of flax. I use NutraFlax from horsetech.com. Omega Horseshine is good too, or you can just buy whole flax from your feed store. You don't need to grind or soak North American grown Flax for horses.

To round out the horse's diet, you do need to add some vitamins. They all seem to work well. I have used GrandVite, Select II, Balance II, SmartVite Maintenance Grass, and Uckele's Equi-Base Grass. I didn't notice a whole lot of difference in their outward health/apperance on any of them. Next I'm going to try a custom blend from HorseTech.com of their PhotoFinish and NutraFlax products, so I can get down to one bucket. They don't charge anything extra for customizing the blends, only for the added ingredients.

This "natural" type diet really helped my horses a lot. Their overall "glow" improved, their feet and coats are better, my mare is a LOT less "marey", they both are calmer, they both have better work ethics, and my "hard keeper" is now in danger of getting FAT! lol I don't go back to grains or commerically prepared feeds again if I can help it.

Well the good news is that the first guy I emailed got back to me and he sounds wonderful. He knows a lot, has some great recommendations, isn't to far away, and is not overly priced. He may be coming out as soon as tomorrow! I am sending him the pictures of Indy's feet and we will see what he says! I will keep you all updated, thanks so much!
Good to hear you might have found someone. Update us with before and after photos, and let us know how tender he is after the trim.
 
#28 ·
When you keep a horse barefoot you must be sure the trimmer is not taking off sole. Very important.. If they trim the walls short and round them well to prevent breakage and to facilitate breakover they need that dead sole. It will flake off on it's own.. Hope this guy is as good as he says he is. ;)
 
#29 ·
I too have had horses with cracks similar to that and the best remedy i have found besides a great farrier is horseshoer's secret and applying pine tar the hooves 2 times a week, its amazing what the pine tar can do in as little as a month...now my horses are crack free ;)
 
Status
Not open for further replies.
You have insufficient privileges to reply here.
Top