The Horse Forum banner
Status
Not open for further replies.

Input on hoof ripples- stress rings? Laminitis?

38K views 80 replies 15 participants last post by  loosie 
#1 · (Edited)
I about fell over when I noticed these distinct ripples on my horses hooves yesterday. The farrier was already scheduled to come today so that was good. I asked him but he didn't seem too concerned and said they were just 'fever' rings. She is not ouchy, not lame, not overweight, maybe a bit of a hay belly. She gets no sweet feed- just less than 1 lb of pellets with some supplements and 24/7 turnout on pretty low quality pasture.

The rippley growth rings look to have started exactly when I bought her- almost 3 months ago. Everything in her world changed at that time so I am really hoping they could be from stress? (She was moved to different pasture, new pasture mate, increase in work, and changes in diet)

The thing that scares me is that I would think an 'event' ring would be just that- one abnormal growth ring. To me it looks like the hoof is growing in ripples right now.

:( :( I am so worried.

Note: hoof angle looks really upright but she was on uneven ground, it's not that upright in person, I'll do another thread about trim, but I'm just concerned about the ripples now. They are on all four feet but this shows it best.
 

Attachments

See less See more
1
#36 ·
Sorry guys I didn't mean to abandon this- I still have plans to get hoof pics for you I just need time to do them correctly. I know ya'll are sticklers for that. ;)

To answer a few questions, she was not being ridden at all before I got her, so her work level changed a lot. I've wormed her twice (to hit different worms since I didn't have much info on her worming schedule). She was put out with a new gelding who has a pretty powerful personality and she's been in heat at least three times since I've has her- so..... Needless to say there are lots of factors that could be causing these. Oh, and food- no sweet feed, mostly pasture with some hard pellets and supplements. Just switched to Calf Manna about 1.5 weeks ago and I feel like I already see a positive difference in her condition.

My farrier comes highly recommended and I have been happy with his work but I still want feedback- like I said earlier the angle on that pic is really deceiving.

Pics soon!!
Posted via Mobile Device
 
#39 · (Edited)
I rode horses and ponies of all shapes and sizes on hard roads doing a lot of trotting for fitness work for many years and never found that the shoes caused any problems at all - I have a friend who does endurance riding who will do long hours of road work every week with a shod horse and its never had a days lameness in its life. I've never had pads on any of my horses that were shod.
If you think about it the majority of UK horse owners have to ride on hard roads and most of them are shod and always have been - the improvements in hoof boots are quite a recent thing and making them more popular but horses weren't lame all the time because they had shoes on
When you look at the extent of those rings and take in the average growth of the hoof at about half inch every 6 weeks whatever's caused it has been going on for some time - and as the rings seem to extend into the coronet band I would think its still happening - which makes me think its most likely diet related laminitis/metabolic issues
 
#40 ·
I rode horses and ponies of all shapes and sizes on hard roads doing a lot of trotting for fitness work for many years and never found that the shoes caused any problems at all - I have a friend who does endurance riding who will do long hours of road work every week with a shod horse and its never had a days lameness in its life. I've never had pads on any of my horses that were shod.
If you think about it the majority of UK horse owners have to ride on hard roads and most of them are shod and always have been - the improvements in hoof boots are quite a recent thing and making them more popular but horses weren't lame all the time because they had shoes on
When you look at the extent of those rings and take in the average growth of the hoof at about half inch every 6 weeks whatever's caused it has been going on for some time - and as the rings seem to extend into the coronet band I would think its still happening - which makes me think its most likely diet related laminitis/metabolic issues

Yes we always have to do a lot of roadwork, but these days all of mine are barefoot and cope just as well as the shod ones I used to own in my youth :). I also think it is metabolic and nothing to do with shoeing.
 
#41 ·
One of those 'cons' is overloading hoof wal
As I have described in detail before, the hoof walls in a CORRECTLY applied shoe are not over loaded because other structures that are designed by nature to help share the load are still doing that job. It is truly unfortunate that many barefoot trimming proponents are basing their observations on only INCORRECT but long standing shoeing practices yet apply that to all shoes as if fact.
in the case of laminitis,
A CORRECT laminitis therapeutic shoeing *unloads* the hoof wall and transfers the load into the frog/digital cushion, bars and ONLY the portions of wall that are still attached in the very caudal portion of the foot. That allows the injured laminae to be UN-stressed and heal more quickly. Your perception that all shoes load the wall is incorrect.
pounding hard ground & the likes, that is absolutely a big 'con'.
see above. correct shoes do not load only the hoof wall.

In THIS case (the OP photo ) it is painfully obvious that the farrier is leaving far too much heel ,allowing it to run halfway under the foot.That is not letting the frog and digital cushion do their job, and is grossly stressing the wall, shoving coronary band upward above the heel ends and likely tearing/stressing laimina in the caudal portion of the foot . The solution whether shod or bare is to trim off that heel set the shoe back more to center the footprint equally around the coffin joint inside the foot,( hoof mapping) and *add frog support* to help the wall; share the load with the digital cushion as nature intended. Even with shoes. ;-)
 
#43 ·
It is truly unfortunate that many barefoot trimming proponents are basing their observations on only INCORRECT but long standing shoeing practices yet apply that to all shoes as if fact.
As I've always said, I don't personally believe shoes are necessarily or always problematic. Whole & flexible hoof protection, such as Epona shoes for eg, aren't bad on that note, IMO *assuming horse is well trimmed & managed. IMO there aren't too many or major 'cons' to that type of thing.

But I can understand the attitude of those who are against shoeing per se, as the fact remains that the overwhelmingly vast majority of shoeing practices DO employ steel rims that DO overload the hoof walls.... and farriers never want to even entertain the thought of any 'cons', which doesn't allow for objective discussion.

A CORRECT laminitis therapeutic shoeing *unloads* the hoof wall and transfers the load into the frog/digital cushion, bars and ONLY the portions of wall that are still attached in the very caudal portion of the foot. That allows the injured laminae to be UN-stressed and heal more quickly. Your perception that all shoes load the wall is incorrect. see above. correct shoes do not load only the hoof wall.
OK, I have only seen what is considered by conventional 'lameness specialists' to be 'best practice' for laminitic horses & have never seen the likes of what you describe with shoes. So yes, you're correct that IME all shoes load hoof walls, to some degree or other & re last sentence above, while healthy hoof walls *should* be sharing some of the load, IME it may not be good enough to only *reduce* load on laminitic walls.

In THIS case (the OP photo ) it is painfully obvious that the farrier is leaving far too much heel ,allowing it to run halfway under the foot.That is not letting the frog and digital cushion do their job, and is grossly stressing the wall, shoving coronary band upward above the heel ends and likely tearing/stressing laimina in the caudal portion of the foot . The solution whether shod or bare is to trim off that heel set the shoe back more to center the footprint equally around the coffin joint inside the foot,( hoof mapping) and *add frog support* to help the wall; share the load with the digital cushion as nature intended. Even with shoes. ;-)
Couldn't agree more:wink:
 
#45 ·
Actually, a good farrier does support the inner and outer wall and a sliver of sole on a shoe. If you look at the position of the nail holes on a shoe, there is plenty of thickness to accommodate this. I've also seen good farriers finish their job with a rasping of the sharp edge after the shoe is placed to take a bit of burden off the outer wall. They can also rocker a shoe to relieve stress of breakover, and back up the shoe so better breakover occurs. My gripe with shoes is the nail holes they leave in a pristine wall. It's not the shoe itself, it's the intelligence of the farrier who nails it on .

If a farrier leaves too much heel or shoes to burdens just the outer wall of the hoof, he may need to freshen his education. There are ELPO directives to aid a farrier in a healthier way to shoe a horse.
 
#50 ·
Actually, a good farrier does support the inner and outer wall and a sliver of sole on a shoe. ... My gripe with shoes is the nail holes they leave in a pristine wall. It's not the shoe itself,
Regardless of whether the outer wall is weight bearing, rim shoes are still peripheral loading devices. Actually I think nails through dead keratin is a very minor 'con' & not much of an issue at all.

2 types of laminae mesh together to hold the coffin bone, one grows out from the top of the hoof down, the other grows out from the coffin bone corium (?). If there is some kind of metabolic occurrence , one type of laminae grows faster than the other and creates a horizontal ring.
... but since the hooves are "fluid" , the ripples will unripple, and still cause the outer wall to grow longer as it unfurls itself. ...As you can see in my rippled hoof,
Sounds like you've been reading Dr Bowker's work but it hasn't all made sense (...& what with metaphors of 'grocery bags' & 'swizzlesticks', it can be confusing:lol:).

The laminae don't 'hold' P3 in place - that's the old idea that the bone(or effectively whole horse) is suspended inside the hoof capsule by the laminae. It's also not 2 types of laminae growing, but 2 types of hoof wall you're talking about - sus you know that & it was just a wrong choice of word.

According to Bowker's research... When under mechanical strain, the laminae do become longer & divide to make for more secondary laminae & therefore more keratin production, thickening inner walls, including 'stretched' toes & 'lamellar wedge'.

The inner wall cells have a high water content & are (relatively) 'fluid'. But the outer wall material, growing from the coronary, is dry, dead & impervious. It's also relatively inflexible(ignoring the plasticity for now). Metabolic & other stresses create damage & 'fault lines' up at the coronary, which grow down. The outer wall doesn't have the 'fluidity' or the capacity to 'unfurl' like that. That is why, despite your rolling the outer wall, you will not see those ripples disappear until they grow out to the bottom.
 
#54 · (Edited)
Clava, Spirit, I did not mean that water caused it. I mean that the insults (rings) stood out more because of the rainy season. It's not the water seeping into the outer hoof wall, that's nuts. But the moisture content is increased because the humidity prevents the normal moisture in the hoof from evaporating.

"wet weather allowing those ripples ...."
Not causing
 
#58 ·
#62 ·
I'm citing (sp) "The Chosen Road" Achieving high performance through applied equine podiatry. A comprehensive guide to whole health hoof care, by KC La Pierre. Pages 16, 17 18 19. I am trying to scan the pages but I am having a problem , so I will paraphrase:
That figures. KC is pretty much a fraud given that he purchased his phony Phd online for about 75 bucks. He is NOT a scientific researcher.

So unless he cites real scientific sources to support his statements, I have to consider his "observations" to be unscientific bunk.
So look in his book again and look for the bibliography notes within the paragraphs, (little numbers at the end of a statement) and then cite THOSE sources. THAT is what a scientific cite is. A real scientist, with real research. if he doesn't include a real scientific source that somehow measured the actual growth rate on a cellular level within the hoofwall then you have to take his observations with a large grain of salt.
 
#63 ·
^Yes, I've found there are a number of 'gurus' out there that when you start digging, don't base their 'knowledge' on much, real qualifications or otherwise(an 'S' name & a 'P' name also come to mind:-x). BUT especially in the horse industry, where there is far too little good research... unless it's of benefit to the racing industry:twisted: I also think it's important to keep in mind that absence of proof is not the same as proof of absence.
 
#65 ·
Yes, plenty of gurus. In the end it's mostly all the same goal. Just different ways of teaching it.

I heard the stories about KC. However, at my new barn one day, I was sitting and chatting and noticed this big paint standing there with the most beautiful hooves I've ever seen. I had to get up and ask the lady who her farrier was. She said she had moved down from Ocala a year ago, and the trimmer actually comes down and still does the horse (60 miles). Before she could tell me, she started spraying the hoof with Silvastrol, and I knew . The lady said her trimmer is a graduate of KC's course.

I have to say that I'm glad I went. The 2 days of anat/phys were just wonderful. As for the trim method itself-I don't think it's any better or worse than any other guru. I think the most important thing I walked away with was an enlightening. I look at hooves completely different now. I have gained an order of the way I do things. My skills have never been better, as well as my eye. I can assess a hoof better. As for mapping, if I don't do it, I am visualizing it.

People can and do say all kind of things about KC. Salesman, fraud, whatever. Maybe he is. But his class was worth every penny and minute I was there. 5 days packed with information, trimming cadavers, and horses, and never stopping. It was full speed ahead for 5 days.
 
#64 ·
Yeah I don't trust a lot of the 'scientific research' because, as you say Loosie it is mostly based on the racing industry and carried out by feed companies who are only interested in making money.
So much of what they say is causing so may problems - just look to the racing industry and you see yearlings foundering and having to be put down, here in NZ around 99% of yearlings up for sale are found to have some stage (from minor to major) of DODs - each horse put up for sale here has to have a set of around 33 xrays just to be presented for sale at the Karaka sales because of this.
Further more do not get me started on the dairy industry here which is what most of the research into pasture grasses is based on - all SCIENTIFICALLY researched of course. And, here's the thing, our own observations over many years with many many horses tells us that the grass the agriculture industry scientifically researched to be best for all stock, is KILLING our horses and I do make that statement lightly.
Nope sorry, not all scientific research is good research, especially when it comes to other animals. (Other than the human animal I mean)
 
#66 ·
You got that right. Research scientists are paid by companies to discover things. So they do even if they don't.
Please don't laugh but I'm an educator on a backyard chicken forum of about 140,000 people. I've been there for 7 years. Chickens were never really worth researching because generally they laid eggs for 2 years then became dinner. But now there's thousands of chicken owners that keep their "pets with benefits" Since nobody ever bred chickens for a long life, there hasn't been much attention to their health as in the last 10 or so years. And who ends up knowing the most??? The members. We have 140.000 members contributing their experiences, even how to do a few simple surgeries. Because most vets won't.

Merlot, I know exactly what you're talking about.
It just makes me crazy.
 
#67 ·
This thread has gotten really interesting, thanks all for sharing your knowledge!

I took a few hoof pics today for you experts, I'd like to do them all but I focused for now on the hoof in my original pic for consistency. I realize a full hoof critique should be in its own thread. But, if anything here helps please do let me know.

This is about two weeks into a trim. The farriers mentioned on the last visit that she has a slight rotation in her leg (?) fetlock (?) so she bears a lot of weight on the outside side of her hoof. He said he didn't even trim the outside, just shaped up the inside. He said he was trying to get her more balanced.













 
#68 ·
Aha! There may be a hoof imbalance causing those lines. If that first hoof bears more weight on the outside, it will be more pressure if he trimmed the inside. A horse will always try to spread the weight equally around the hoof. If there's a taller area, that sits on a shoe, the hoof wall may have no where to go but ripple.

My mare had a multiple reason over a year. The farrier I had would keep her inside walls higher. Eventually what happened was an inside heel bulb pushed up, the coronary band pushed up, and the hoof wall got these ripples. That was over a year ago. Then in August she had shoes for 12 weeks. Then I moved her and the shoes came off but her diet changed. So I had multi sized ripples. Her one hoof with ripples looks even worse because that hoof likes to curl in the inside wall.

What I'm doing right now, (and more tomorrow) is to float the whole quarter, like a scoop in the middle of the side.

Your ripples can also be cause by too much pressure on the outside wall. Your horse may have to come out of shoes for a while and get a nice trim with a big roll on the rims to get that rippled outer wall off the ground. And do not let anyone trim your horse's hooves to correct a confirmation problem. It's only going to hurt in the long run.

Those are mighty mighty long heels. Look at it this way. Those frogs should be mighty close to the ground, if not touching it.
 
#70 ·
The usual long hoof capsules, high heels & forward run/shod feet. As this is your thread on your horses hooves, you can post here. Check out the link in my signature for angles of pics for best critiques.
 
#73 ·
After looking at her hoof pics and researching a lot, I can clearly see what is not as obvious in person and that is that her heels are waaaaay to long (this is why I really like taking pictures- you can see so much more sometimes) I think my friend was correct that these are concussion rings but I think they are happening because the high heels are putting too much pressure on her hooves (or wrong pressure).

This leaves me at a bit of a loss though. We dont have many farriers and I thought I was using 'the best of the best'. I don't want to leave her like this any longer but it pisses me off that I just spent money on a trim that I have to redo after only 2 weeks. I don't know that the original farrier will be receptive to feedback so now it's a game of chance with a new one....? :(
Posted via Mobile Device
 
#75 ·
PixiTrix, You may have to buy tools and learn to trim her yourself. I am too old and lack the hand strength, or I woud do all of mine. I do a sort of maintenance in between farrier visits, but cannot physically do 56 hooves. If I had started at 20, maybe.....

Nancy
 
#76 ·
I have been thinking about this actually... I am kind of an obessive researcher and I feel that if I take it slow I may be able to do it myself. My stepmom used to be a farrier so I may be able to get some help from her on her next trip out (that might not be for as much as 6 mo though). I was watching some YouTube videos last night about hoof mapping.

There is no one in my area who is a barefoot trimmer, they just don't do that here. But, there's an older cowboy who trims my friends horses, I don't love his work but he may be willing to do whatever I ask since being a farrier isn't his main gig. I don't think he'd be as touchy as the other farrier.
 
#78 ·
This is about two weeks into a trim
OH DEAR. That is absolutely horrid shoeing. It looks like those shoes have been on for six months or more ! .

The entire foot is too long, the heels run SO far under the foot, allowing no correct frog or heel function, and the toe too forward. This is navicular in the making.
and those hacksawed off shoe heels?? .....this is not a farrier.It is an amateur hack.
. I would just yank those monstrosities off, round off the hooves (rasp the heels back as much as possible too) and let the horse go barefoot. ANYTHING would be better than that shoeing.
 
#79 ·
OH DEAR. That is absolutely horrid shoeing. It looks like those shoes have been on for six months or more ! .

The entire foot is too long, the heels run SO far under the foot, allowing no correct frog or heel function, and the toe too forward. This is navicular in the making.
and those hacksawed off shoe heels?? .....this is not a farrier.It is an amateur hack.
. I would just yank those monstrosities off, round off the hooves (rasp the heels back as much as possible too) and let the horse go barefoot. ANYTHING would be better than that shoeing.

Boy, Patty, I can *hear* your restraint! :wink:
 
Status
Not open for further replies.
You have insufficient privileges to reply here.
Top