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Laminitis MUCH worse after trim

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  • Laminitic horse always sore after shoeing
  • Low+grade+laminitis+treatment

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    04-13-2013, 11:25 PM
  #31
Yearling
The video made my heart ache... sending healing prayers your way!
     
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    04-13-2013, 11:29 PM
  #32
Weanling
I forgot to mention this earlier! Have you thought about easyboots? I know you can purchase cushion inserts which might be useful for your horse's rehab!

When my trainer transitions horses to barefoot, he uses the easyboot glove with comfort pads if they are particularly tender.

Your poor baby! That video is so saddening to me. :( I hope he feels better soon!

ETA... they do appear to have a rehab boot: Easyboot Rx | The Best Horse Hoof Therapy Boot | EasyCare Inc.
     
    04-13-2013, 11:45 PM
  #33
Trained
One of the signs of chronic low grade laminitis is lameness after a trim. As well my farrier who, as far as I'm concerned, walks on water (or at least he will when I get my phone call returned :P), is apt to rasping down the toe in a similar fashion on certain horses (including mine - who has always been sound with this farrier). So I wouldn't be so inclined to throw the farrier under the bus.
And with the "removing sole" bit. Sometimes it looks like there's lots of sole coming off, when in reality it's just the dead flaky stuff that is coming off. Or the frog getting pared. Or the bars. I'm not a farrier but it still looks (to me) like there's enough foot and sole left on. Also, I think it's tough to judge the trim without a "before" picture, or at least a clear front shot.
I don't know the horse, the farrier or the vet but I'm not seeing some awful trim job... Sorry just playing devils advocate. Maybe next time as well it would be worth it to have the vet and farrier out at the same time?? Or get the farrier to call the vet. My farrier and vet work very closely and will call each other, or I can schedule them out together and they'll pow wow over the feet (or talk about fishing lol). With a laminitic horse it is good to have the farrier out often, so in a couple weeks maybe try to rope the two into the same time slot?

Good luck!
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    04-14-2013, 12:27 AM
  #34
Weanling
Quote:
Originally Posted by walkinthewalk    
That was tearful

Yes to the plan but an addedum following "fire the farrier" would be "find a new and better qualified farrier". We've had that conversation a couple times, on here, and many of us agree the best doesn't always mean having a lot of certs hanging off their finger tips. The highest certified and best guy within 75 miles is who cut my horse too short, resulting in torn ligaments and the vet had ok'd him.

Meaning, I don't know what to say in terms of finding somebody new
Yes, that's the hard part. It seems like everyone and their brother are farriers, but even the ones with credentials can suck balls. It's hard to seperate the good from the bad ones...

Since Friday, I have talked to three different farriers -
- the one that did the trim (which is the one that most of the owners at the barn use) who said it's "normal" for Leo to be this sore;
- one that was coincidentally out this morning for another horse who said he couldn't really see anything wrong with the trim;
- one that is also a horse owner at the barn, who sighed when he heard the name of the other farrier and said "that's the problem right there". He was a bit too happy to offer his own services (he wanted to put shoes on), which I declined.

I couldn't locate a local supplier for EquiCast that's open on the weekend, so I will try the hoof boots / pads tomorrow, but we have the possibility to switch to EquiCast on Monday.

Quote:
One of the signs of chronic low grade laminitis is lameness after a trim. As well my farrier who, as far as I'm concerned, walks on water (or at least he will when I get my phone call returned :P), is apt to rasping down the toe in a similar fashion on certain horses (including mine - who has always been sound with this farrier). So I wouldn't be so inclined to throw the farrier under the bus.
And with the "removing sole" bit. Sometimes it looks like there's lots of sole coming off, when in reality it's just the dead flaky stuff that is coming off. Or the frog getting pared. Or the bars. I'm not a farrier but it still looks (to me) like there's enough foot and sole left on. Also, I think it's tough to judge the trim without a "before" picture, or at least a clear front shot.
I don't know the horse, the farrier or the vet but I'm not seeing some awful trim job... Sorry just playing devils advocate. Maybe next time as well it would be worth it to have the vet and farrier out at the same time?? Or get the farrier to call the vet. My farrier and vet work very closely and will call each other, or I can schedule them out together and they'll pow wow over the feet (or talk about fishing lol). With a laminitic horse it is good to have the farrier out often, so in a couple weeks maybe try to rope the two into the same time slot?

Good luck!
Yes, I understand that there can be lameness after a trim. I would not consider this an acceptable level of lameness or "low grade" laminitis anymore though. It was low grade last Sunday when I first called the vet, but now it's pretty severe, including the typical posture, reluctance to walk and inability to turn, inability to stand on three legs (he goes down in pain), shaking etc. And that is WITH the bute...

I'm actually glad you are playing devil's advocate though, cause it is much too easy to yell and scream and get upset at people that have not really done anything wrong. I admit that I am quite emotional right now when it comes to the horse, so I try my hardest to be objective and friendly when I talk to people.
Unfortunately, I don't have any "before" pictures. His feet were quite long, as he was due for a trim.
     
    04-14-2013, 12:51 AM
  #35
Trained
My point with that is that a horse with chronic laminitis who is well enough to be ridden and treated like a normal horse, when trimmed, gets a good degree worse and is lame for about a week after. Then, usually the farrier is blamed. The fact that the horse is obese, the feet are hot and this happens every trim cycle with every farrier is usually ignored (ask me how I know).
So it would follow that a horse actively in acute laminitis, after a trim would be a good degree more sore or uncomfortable after the trim, to the point of downright uncomfortableness, founder stance, etc..
I think that if you get the horse away from being downright miserable (with the pads, bute and icing) that with continued, frequent farrier visits, well supervised by your vet, the horse will be back to better.

I also really disagree with putting shoes on an actively foundering horse. They need sole support. I might steer clear of that guy without a recommendation.

And as far as sorting through farriers - I've been in my area for a while and found that there are certain guys I like and certain guys I don't like and all the guys I like have been trained by 1 farrier and all the guys I don't have been trained by others and the people I can't stand were trained by an air headed, egotistical a hole who couldn't trim his own toenails. So find someone you like, ask who they were trained by, and slowly try to figure out which "school" you like.
     
    04-14-2013, 03:08 AM
  #36
Trained
Isuel, I was responding to 'never a reason' generally. Only having a couple of pix to go on, specific to those feet I will only say that it appears the way he's done it is not the best IMO and I don't get why people do this just at the very toe like this, while leaving the toe quarters fully loaded. The reasons for backing up/bevelling walls are to do with balance, relieving flaring & imbalance, relieving walls & therefore laminae/corium strain in case of laminitis or peripheral loading.

I agree with Annabel that there's not quite enough info to go on to judge the farrier here on this forum. I do however agree with Trinity that if this is what the guy considers 'normal' and has left the horse in this state without taking measures to make him comfortable, that is a BIG problem. But then, we still don't have the whole picture - it's possible things got missed or misinterpreted...

I also don't believe even dead sole should generally be removed from a laminitic horse in the front half of his feet, especially if the vet expressly instructed not to. I'd also be telling the vet how unhappy you are about his referring someone who may have caused this suffering because he wouldn't follow instructions.
     
    04-14-2013, 03:26 AM
  #37
Yearling
The first thing I'd recommend is to stop walking that horse on the concrete. That's causing more pain than what the farrier did. Soft footing is critical. When you lead your horse across the concrete or rocks to wash them and dote over them, you're killing them with kindness. The horse's body language is telling you that. Put several inches of sand or shavings in his stall, or if you have an arena you can break it up deep and soft. Don't make him get up if he needs to lay down. He's not colicking. He's taking weight off his ouchy hooves.

There are different ways of providing relief for a laminitis horse. One is to do as mentioned above, give him 'powder puffs' to walk on. Another is to protect the sore part. I strongly disagree with any ideas or theories regarding application of sole pressure. Hoof testers will tell you that's where you have pain, specifically in the toe. Don't use therapuetic boots or anything that will put pressure on the sole. Adding sole pressure to an already-inflamed area will only compound the problem and add more stress, which will cause another laminitic episode. When that happens, you usually have the most damage in the hind feet because that's where the body weight is being transferred to. Then you have problems.

Caution must be practiced if applying shoes. Nailing is painful and as the OP stated, this horse is already having a hard time standing on 3 legs. What I do any time I work no one this sore is to fold up a towel and let them stand on it while I have the other foot up. And it's best to use a rim pad as opposed to straight steel or aluminum. Raises the sole off the ground a little and has a little less shock when nailing.

I suspect the farrier was squaring the toe to ease breakover, which in theory would counter-act the strain caused by lowering the heel, which was done to align the coffin bone and transfer weight to the heels. Looks to me like the only thing he did wrong is leaving the sole on the ground.

Another thing I would do personally is stop giving bute or banamine, whatever you're giving.
     
    04-14-2013, 04:08 AM
  #38
Trained
Quote:
Originally Posted by ~*~anebel~*~    
So it would follow that a horse actively in acute laminitis, after a trim would be a good degree more sore or uncomfortable after the trim,
Oh, forgot that bit - IME I don't see that at all **assuming the walls are relieved & thin soles not pared. (touches wood) no laminitic horse I've trimmed has walked off any sorer from the trim at all. They're usually no better immediately either, still need intensive care, but sometimes they're instantly better - I think it depends on the mechanics - but I'd be considering it could be my fault if they were worse. Regardless of fault, I'd also ensure the horse was adequately supported/protected.

'Sub clinical' is a bit different IMO, in that it is commonly not recognised that the horse even has a problem - they may be 'fine' apart from after a trim. It's also normal for horses to go longer than optimally between trims(I know, we're in the real world here) & a laminitic horse - even one that doesn't show 'clinical' symptoms - doesn't cope well with swathes of excess hoof being removed infrequently. Little & often trimming tends to eliminate the 'sore after a trim' IME.
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    04-14-2013, 06:50 AM
  #39
Weanling
Quote:
Originally Posted by AmazinCaucasian    
The first thing I'd recommend is to stop walking that horse on the concrete. Done. He is no longer being taken out of his stall at all. That's causing more pain than what the farrier did. Soft footing is critical. When you lead your horse across the concrete or rocks to wash them and dote over them, you're killing them with kindness. The horse's body language is telling you that. Put several inches of sand or shavings in his stall, or if you have an arena you can break it up deep and soft. Don't make him get up if he needs to lay down. He's not colicking. He's taking weight off his ouchy hooves.

There are different ways of providing relief for a laminitis horse. One is to do as mentioned above, give him 'powder puffs' to walk on. Another is to protect the sore part. I strongly disagree with any ideas or theories regarding application of sole pressure. Hoof testers will tell you that's where you have pain, specifically in the toe. Don't use therapuetic boots or anything that will put pressure on the sole. Adding sole pressure to an already-inflamed area will only compound the problem and add more stress, which will cause another laminitic episode. When that happens, you usually have the most damage in the hind feet because that's where the body weight is being transferred to. Then you have problems.

So if I understand you correctly, you would not use hoof boots, EquiCast, or anything else that covers the whole foot, since this adds sole pressure (esp to the back feet). So how exactly would I "protect the sore part" then?

Caution must be practiced if applying shoes. Nailing is painful and as the OP stated, this horse is already having a hard time standing on 3 legs. What I do any time I work no one this sore is to fold up a towel and let them stand on it while I have the other foot up. And it's best to use a rim pad as opposed to straight steel or aluminum. Raises the sole off the ground a little and has a little less shock when nailing.

I think shoes are out of the question at the moment (for the pain of nailing them on and risk of overloading the wall).

I suspect the farrier was squaring the toe to ease breakover, which in theory would counter-act the strain caused by lowering the heel, which was done to align the coffin bone and transfer weight to the heels. Looks to me like the only thing he did wrong is leaving the sole on the ground.

Another thing I would do personally is stop giving bute or banamine, whatever you're giving.
So if I understand you correctly, you would not use anything like a boot that covers the entire sole (since it increases sole pressure), and would not give bute. So that would mean just leave the horse in its stall without anything then? Kind of counteracts the intuitive "Aaaaah, must do SOMETHING"
     
    04-14-2013, 06:56 AM
  #40
Green Broke
Loosie, that I understand and agree with. Though, if my farrier left flares (from which I see on the toe quarters) and brought the toe all the way to the white line (which it looks like to me) and rasped the toe wall enough for it to be cupped inward like such (especially on the left foot, which seems to be clubbed slightly, if that's not from the laminitis), he'd be gone. Then again, I can trim my own and don't necessarily need a farrier to pay to trim mine.

Good/more pictures would definitely help with critiquing, but I just don't see a good job being done. I've never had a horse sore at all after a trim (though none had laminitis); I could take them on a 5 hour trail ride over various terrain and come home with a still sound horse with no issues.

Just my opinion from experience with the pictures provided. My opinion may change with better pictures from different angles, but that's all I can see from these.
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