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Laminitis MUCH worse after trim

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    04-14-2013, 07:43 AM
  #41
Trained
I did think 'ouch' when I saw the pics on concrete, but afraid I just assumed that was a one off for pics, that the horse had deep soft bedding/footing or was otherwise padded. Sorry OP for not thinking about emphasising that more!

Quote:
I strongly disagree with any ideas or theories regarding application of sole pressure. Hoof testers will tell you that's where you have pain, ... Adding sole pressure to an already-inflamed area will only compound the problem
And therein lies the crux of the differences. Unfortunately OP, it's one of those things that you're just going to have to learn all you can to weigh up the different approaches. AC's is also a very widely respected opinion & shouldn't just be dismissed in the least IMO. Learn about the principles behind it & the success rates, etc, to consider the pros & cons of different approaches to make a more informed decision.

My take on the above theory is pretty much the opposite - while hoof testers will indeed hurt an inflamed corium & it's also likely the sole is thin, so pressure may be painful there anyway, I believe it's not just the sole but the whole corium that's sore, & it's not just the sole that hoof testers are squeezing. Putting a lot of pressure anywhere is going to do more harm, to that area at least, & forcing the walls to bear the entire load, especially while the laminae are already compromised affects the whole hoof. So relieving the walls(they can share the load when they're in a fit state to do so) AND padding the sole, to further protect them & spread the load AND providing yielding footing & an environment where the horse is encouraged to lie down when needed is the approach I think most successful. I also think minimal confinement & movement are important too, but sounds like it's down the road a bit in this case...

I do agree with AC on the subject of bute, etc. While the horse is in acute pain, perhaps it's a necessity, but very short term only. I'd get him off it ASAP. There are herbal alternatives for pain relief if necessary, which are not damaging to the gut. But so long as the horse is managed properly, while he'll still need special care for some time yet, the acute stage & pain shouldn't last long anyway.
     
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    04-14-2013, 08:09 AM
  #42
Green Broke
You're going to have so much Pro and Con information, this alone will make you tear your hair out, start drinking or drink more

Regarding padding the hoof:

It was pure chance my horse ended up wearing Boa's w/partial pads for 8 months. It turned out to be the perfect thing for him and his living environment.

He was only kept in the stall at night, as is the usual routine here. I turned him in the 1/2 acre barn yard during the day.

As a sidebar, he was rotated 8 - 9 on the LF (measured from the dorsal wall) and 5 degrees on the RF. Myself and the vet were astounded he never once exhibited the typical founder stance, I am seeing with your horse. Even more astounding, he never once layed down when he was outside. He would crash in a big way in his stall every night but somehow made it thru the day without going down

Back to the boots. I had talked to Customer Service at Easycare (who was fantastic by the way) and she nixed the Rx boot for Joker's scenario.

The Rx boots are not meant to be left on more than a few hourse daily.

She said the Boa's could be left on him for up to 12 hours. So Joker went outside in the Boa's with partial pads every day. I took everything off when he came in his stall at night so his hooves could dry out and "rest".

The vet wanted mats in his stall with shavings on top. Thankfully I already had grid mats in there. The biggest thing was deep cleaning his stall every day because he drank a LOT of water and ate a lot of salt; I imagine from the fever within him.

The Boa's gave his entire soles the coverage they needed to protect them from the elements, like stones, rough edges of the ground where there were holes, etc. He walked a lot more fluid wearing those boots.

The part pads were cut specifically to protect from the tip of the frogs back to the heels, and to just inside the whiteline from side-to-side. Their purpose was to relieve pressure on the heels and keep part of the sole further protected.

The vet was adamant about NOT covering the toe callous with the pad.

It was amazing how the toe callous stayed calloused inside the boots.

Boa's may not fit your horse, you may need something else, if you go that route. But the key to successfully using a trail boot, is a secure fit AND the partial pads.

If you cut up the pad the treadmill is sitting on, a good pair of kitchen shears work well and so do pinking shears.

Put the smooth side of the mat to the sole of the hoof.

Your horse needs some cushioning, I think we all agree on that; it's going to come down to what works best for him and sadly you will have to just Go With The Flow as to what makes him comfortable and will aid in his rehab

Because you work, I really like the EquiCast idea, if it would make sense in your case.

Perish the thought I ever have to do this garbage again, I probably would stick with the Boa boots and partial pads because it's what I know and my only job these days is being a slave to anything that whinnies, barks, or meows

That was pretty much one of my famous "yes, I guess not" answers------
     
    04-14-2013, 12:17 PM
  #43
Trained
Heck, I'll throw my 0.02$ in too
OP, first and foremost, I'd put him in deep sand. That'll relieve a lot of pain. As has been said, if he wants to lay down, let him! Get him off the bute. Pain is there for a reason. It to not over-stress compromised body parts.
X-rays rays, yesterday, to see if there is rotation and a trim to de-rotate if necessary. That includes easing breakover and getting rid of flares.
Shoeing vs barefoot, I've seen ONE method of shoeing work, temporarily, but cannot say if it actually CURED the horse. I have seen the barefoot approach, if done correctly, actually cure to complete soundness. This is not to say, the shoeing is no cure, I just haven't seen it. Just to make that clear.
I've been where you're at, didn't have a forum or vet to seek advice, let alone a competent farrier or trimmer, until my horse was chronic. Given the chance, I'd go barefoot. It takes nerve, and patience. A lot of nerve. But I've seen it work more than once.

I'd suggest you do some reading at Bare Foot Horse to be informed once you have vet and farrier there to proceed treatment. Go to the "founder" page and study.

But first, get him on deep sand and keep him as happy as possible.
     
    04-14-2013, 01:28 PM
  #44
Weanling
Thanks for everyone's help and advice.
I think I've heard it all now
- from "put shoes on him" to "extra padding in the heel part only" to "extra padding over the whole sole area" to "leave him barefoot",
- from "he should be on strict stall rest in deep bedding" to "he should be moving around a bit to increase circulation",
- from "don't soak the feet, it'll make his soles even weaker" to "soak in warm water" to "soak in cold water, that's what horses in the wild do",
- from "increase the dose of bute for pain relief" to "no bute"...

I guess now it's up to me to decide what is best.

Unfortunately, he is no better this morning. Even worse, he has almost stopped eating and maybe ate half a small flake of grass hay since last night.

We will see what the next few days bring... thanks again.
     
    04-14-2013, 05:10 PM
  #45
Yearling
Shoeing will not "cure" the horse. Nothing cures laminitus and founder except growing out the hoofwall back in line with the bone if it has sunk or rotated and getting rid of the inflammation on the lamina. It is often advised to bevel the wall of the laminitic horse well and cast or boot because torque on the wall is a big source of pain for the laminitic horse as well as thin soles so rim shoes are ill advised by themselves. What shoeing WILL do is protect the inner structures of the foot which is the biggest problem *IF ITS DONE RIGHT*. If its done wrong and done wrong for a long period of time, it is the death of the animal. No kidding. Laminitic horses MUST have frog support. This is why you see so many reversed shoes or heart bars. IMO, a better option is pour in padding. You can leave the toe area open if need be. Never ever ever leave a laminitic horse hanging on his walls with a rim shoe only.

I have used casting a great deal and honestly? Every founder or laminitic horse I have applied it to walked off at least the same, a little better to almost sound after it was applied provided the horse was not still actively laminitic with hot feet. The reason IMO is becaus eit stops the painful flexing of the hoof capsule as it immobilized the hoof a great deal. ( Do be sure to cure the casting under full load however with the opposit foot held up and on an impression pad. I use a garden kneeling pad)

If they did come up sore, it is easy to remove and will not damage the hoof wall like shoes do. There is no pounding either on sore feet to nail them on. Get rid of the heat and reason for the laminitus first barefoot on soft footing. Ice the feet and legs and remove the cause. Then, support and protect the foot via whatever method works for you and your hoof care provider.


FYI, Equicast is just human grade casting. The stuff you use if you break your arm? Comes in different widths. You can get it off Ebay cheap by the case or from a local medical supplier. There are loads of videos online about how to apply it.
     
    04-14-2013, 05:25 PM
  #46
Trained
Human grade casting material comes in both fiberglass and plaster varieties. The plaster will go soft about 20 minutes after it gets wet. That makes it inappropriate for livestock.

The bute is not only a pain killer; it is also anti-inflammatory. Inflammation is destroying the hooves.
     
    04-14-2013, 06:12 PM
  #47
Green Broke
So much contradictory information, I know. But, everyone that has dealt with founder is giving advice based on their situations. The farriers/trimmers are giving advice based on their own successes treating foundered horses.

I know everyone is sorry for making this all so confusing. The upshot is I can tell you are "smarter than the average bear", so go with your gut and do what you think will work best for your horse

I also know it's a given you've already spoke with the vet about your horse being off his feed

If the vet didn't suggest this and he's still off his feed - take away everything but the hay and try replacing the feed pan stuff with nothing but pure timothy pellets.

One dry pound at a time, but wet them and give that to him as many times a day as possible.

I have found many small meals of forage do more to get a horse back eating than anything. Whatever supplements any horse is on? They can go without until they start properly processing forage again

Hopefully it will get him back eating his hay again and keep the recycling process working.

If you're giving him Bute, you could continue to mix that into the wet timothy pellets but nothing else.

When Joker foundered so bad last year, the vet had me keep him on aspirin for an extended period, even though he knew there was the risk of ulcers. He felt the immediate benefit to Joker was worth the risk and we'd deal with possible ulcers later.

It took 3 or 4 months but Joker did develop mild gastric stomach ulcers. I only gave him Omeprazole for three weeks and he's been fine, so far.
     
    04-14-2013, 06:21 PM
  #48
Trained
Quote:
Originally Posted by walkinthewalk    

When Joker foundered so bad last year, the vet had me keep him on aspirin for an extended period, even though he knew there was the risk of ulcers. He felt the immediate benefit to Joker was worth the risk and we'd deal with possible ulcers later. .
Some horses have had good response to aspirin for acute laminitis. The thinking on it is that it decreases inflammation as well as stopping the formation of blood clots that can hinder circulation. Any treatments should be done under the supervision of your veterinarian.
     
    04-14-2013, 06:56 PM
  #49
Yearling
The comparable human product (its all made by the same manufacturer) is fiberglass or poly blend resin casting tape. There are two kinds. Both are waterproof.

Obviously, one would not use plaster. I don't think even Human Drs really use it anymore in favor of the fiberglass casts. I havent seen one since I was in grade school.
     
    04-14-2013, 07:01 PM
  #50
Yearling
2 seconds of googling came up with this. No offence to the branded horse casting tape sellers, but what a ripoff. A box of 10 from any medical supplier will be about 40 to 60 dollars depending on the width you need. Anyone can buy it. People use it for crafts etc too. Also, you can ask your Drs and vets for stuff that is going out of date. It works fine for hoof casting.

ALTOCAST by the CASE Fiberglass Casting Tape Material

fiberglass casting tape | eBay

Techform Fiberglass Casting tape. Medical cast material. Arm or Leg cast Supply
     

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