Laminitis MUCH worse after trim - Page 6
   

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Laminitis MUCH worse after trim

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  • Farrier suspected borderline laminitis
  • Will a foundered beef be able to walk correctly if you trim their feet

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    04-15-2013, 01:40 PM
  #51
Yearling
Quote:
Originally Posted by Regula    
So if I understand you correctly, you would not use anything like a boot that covers the entire sole (since it increases sole pressure), and would not give bute. So that would mean just leave the horse in its stall without anything then? Kind of counteracts the intuitive "Aaaaah, must do SOMETHING"
No ma'am I'm not against using a boot or pad. In fact I think it's really helpful. As long as there's NOT SOLE PRESSURE. What you can do is put a rim pad between a hard flat pad and the foot, then of course a shoe on bottom. That will protect the feet and not have sole pressure. That's just one way of doing it . Like loosie said, laminitis is a much debated topic. And I'm sure loosie'sway works too, I'm just stating what works for me. We live in the foundered horse Mecca! To the east of me is thousands of acres of Mississippi River bottom ground. Rich and fertile soil that grows that sweet tasty fescue that horses love. Dozens of foundered horses every year just in my shoeing radius. So I've got to see and work on plenty and tried a lot of different things.

No I don't think a person should just lock your horse without anything. Like. I said deep sand or shavings in a stall OR arena is good.

The reason I don't like bute is because it numbs them to the point where they don't know it hurts. See, when they founder the connecting structures (laminae) that suspend the coffin bond and connect it to the hoof wall weaken. When a horse stands and puts weight on weakened feet like this, that's when sinkage and rotation happens. So when you give them a painkiller, they stand around or walk when they should be off their feet. There is a reason for giving it other then pain, it's because bute is a vascular dilator and opens up blood supply to a starving hoof. On paper it looks beneficial. But what happens is you get more coffin bone sinkage and next thing you know a horse that didn't start out that bad, has his bones punching through the bottom of his feet.
     
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    04-15-2013, 05:47 PM
  #52
Trained
Bute is not a painkiller. It is an NSAID. It acts by reducing inflammation, thereby reducing pain from inflammation, not pain from injury.

Inflammation is very, very damaging to structures and reducing inflammation is the best way to reduce secondary damage by tissue swelling and further damaging itself. That's why, when injured they say to get ice on immediately and immediately take an NSAID. Inflammation is more damaging than immediate injury, the immediate injury will also still be painful enough to reduce movement, but by administering an NSAID you are reducing further damage along with reducing unnecessary pain that is not serving to keep the horse still, only make him miserable.

I don't know if you've ever been injured in a similar fashion, but it will still hurt regardless of how much Advil you pop. Bute does the exact same thing and IMO to suggest to a horse owner to go without giving readily available NSAIDs to the horse is borderline cruel.
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    04-15-2013, 11:23 PM
  #53
Trained
To Regula, re 'heard it all', I sympathise! That's why I said 'unfortunately' it's a case of learning all you can... there're no short cuts I'm aware of, to good study.

Re the 'full v's partial sole support' IMO it depends on degree. For eg. If the toe sole is abscessed, bulging... penetrated then it's important this area is relieved, which can be done with a part pad, or cutting a crescent into a full one. In most cases I've dealt with however, I've found that a soft, full pad is fine - the aim is to help the horse be comfortable & therefore able to move about as soon as possible without pain *or further damage.

Quote:
Originally Posted by AmazinCaucasian    
We live in the foundered horse Mecca!
I thought I lived in the foundered horse Mecca! I suspect there're a few about the place!

Quote:
I said deep sand or shavings in a stall OR arena is good.
But wouldn't that equal sole pressure then? That's one thing I don't get about the 'sole off the ground' theory - surely if that's the desired aim, flat concrete should be better(& more comfortable) than yielding footing that negates long walls/peripheral loading.

Quote:
when a horse stands and puts weight on weakened feet like this, that's when sinkage and rotation happens.
IME this happens when they put weight on weakened walls & have no support underneath to prevent 'sinking'.

Quote:
next thing you know a horse that didn't start out that bad, has his bones punching through the bottom of his feet.
Getting off track here but I'm curious how you go about rehabilitating solar penetration?
     
    04-16-2013, 12:03 AM
  #54
Yearling
Anabel-I've taken enough bute pills to fill a feed sack. Took them till my eyes started feeling like a fan was blowing in them constantly. And if you'd experienced for yourself what you can do under the influence of bute, you may have a different opinion of what bute is. I generally took 1/2 a pill, good for 250 lbs body weight on a horse. I've taken it for injuries, back pain , whatever hurt. And I've been injured BECAUSE I was numb. Hell, you coulda cut my hand off and I wouldn't have known until I saw blood. You can call it cruel to not recommend bute. That's your opinion. But when they're numb they will stand around when the damage is being done. Do you know what goes on in a horses body during laminitis without googling it? Do you fully understand how (what happens) transfers to the hooves?
     
    04-16-2013, 12:18 AM
  #55
Weanling
Quick update:
Yesterday morning was probably our low point, Leo was in a lot of pain and not eating. After the vet on call yesterday suggested that I might think about euthanasia if we can't manage the pain on bute (:P), our regular vet was out today. We took another set of x-rays, and luckily it seems like there is no further rotation/sinking as opposed to a week ago, everthing is pretty stable, despite the much worse clinical signs.
The vet thinks the pain is most likely from the fact that the toe and walls have been trimmed back a lot and - since Leo is flat footed and doesn't have a lot of sole anyways - he is now walking on the sole, which is painful. So that's in-line with what AC was saying.
He is standing in deep shavings and after two days of styrofoam pads now has a pair of Softride gel boots with frog support (they were the ones that were readily available here), so let's hope that makes a difference. The argument for going against a rim boot / shoe was that it would load the walls and thus the side laminae.
I asked about casting, but neither the vet nor any of the farriers around here have experience with it, so I'd rather not start any experiments.

As for pain management on bute - there is no risk that he will over-exercise on bute. Really, none. The bute (which was dosed high) barely takes the edge off. Leo barely moves even with the bute, so I agree that it would probably be borderline cruelty to take him off it. I am a little bit afraid of ulcers, but hopefully we'll be done with the bute by the end of the week.

Thanks again for everyone's help.
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    04-16-2013, 12:38 AM
  #56
Trained
Quote:
Originally Posted by ~*~anebel~*~    
Bute is not a painkiller. It is an NSAID. It acts by reducing inflammation, thereby reducing pain from inflammation, not pain from injury.
It still reduces pain tho (& we are indeed talking about inflammation, so don't get your point on that). Which can be a good thing & a bad thing - yes, horses(& people) do indeed hurt themselves from doing too much on painkillers, anti-inflams or otherwise(AC, ...you take bute?!... I try to avoid further injury by waiting till the last job of the day before taking anything if I need)

I appreciate that inflammation can also do further damage(in the case of lami it is the main prob) & often needs to be dealt with medically, but as well as the possibility of a horse... feeling better than he should, various drugs(not just bute) damage the gut, which can in turn lead to further laminitis & other issues, so it needs to be a short term treatment, if deemed necessary at all. There are also herbal alternatives that don't damage the gut.

Quote:
but it will still hurt regardless of how much Advil you pop.
Don't let the manufacturers hear you say that!!
     
    04-16-2013, 07:28 AM
  #57
Yearling
Trinity's right, those feet look they were trimmed way to close to the coffin bone, and the horse is walking on his toe at the sole. That would hurt alot.
     
    04-16-2013, 08:12 AM
  #58
Weanling
Quote:
Originally Posted by princessfluffybritches    
Trinity's right, those feet look they were trimmed way to close to the coffin bone, and the horse is walking on his toe at the sole. That would hurt alot.
Yes, exactly what the vet said too.
     
    04-16-2013, 10:11 AM
  #59
Super Moderator
I am so glad you updated

Don't give up. Horses are so resilient it is astounding what they can come back from.

My horse foundered really bad March, 2012 and the expensive-well-schooled-and-certified farrier I hired to rehab him, cut his heels so short that my horse ended up with torn ligaments --- torn not strained.

Joker went thru two tub of aspirin and I went thru hours and days of grueling/intensive labor to try and manage both the founder and the torn ligaments. I thought I was going to have to PTS him but today, he's running and kicking up a storm -- in a grazing muzzle but feeling plenty good enough to buck up at the #3 horse when he bit Joker in the butt the other day

Just keep hangin' in there and doing the best you can do. If your instincts tell you that maybe the vet and/or the farrier aren't quite right in their assessment as to how to proceed with treatments?

Go with your gut --- no woman goes wrong going with her gut.

Men? Well, if they go with their gut, they reach for a cold can of something that will get them a DUI if they have too many

Many good thoughts and Prayers coming your way
     
    04-16-2013, 10:40 AM
  #60
Yearling
Loosie I'm not good at that multi-quote thing but I can answer like this

Quote:
Originally Posted by loosie    
But wouldn't that equal sole pressure then? That's one thing I don't get about the 'sole off the ground' theory - surely if that's the desired aim, flat concrete should be better(& more comfortable) than yielding footing that negates long walls/peripheral loading.



IME this happens when they put weight on weakened walls & have no support underneath to prevent 'sinking'.



Getting off track here but I'm curious how you go about rehabilitating solar penetration?

Well hope it doesn't sound sarcastic but...Watch a foundered horse walk on concrete or rocks, then watch them walk on sand. Now this is the point where some farriers would babble a bunch of fancy words and thoroughly confuse readers. But all they need to understand is soft sole pressure is good, hard, non-conforming sole pressure is bad.

Weakened walls? It's weakened laminae that I see allowing all the damage. When a horse is standing (and no you won't have to worry about a horse getting to much exercise like the op said. It's just standing and trying to walk to get a drink of eat) p3 is pushing down towards the ground. So as far as sole support and anything stopping the bone's descent, no I don't believe for a second sole support loke boots or pads will stop p3's fall. That's going to happen whether there's something on the bottom of the hoof or not. Oh, I suppose the bone would stop when it hits the boot or whatever is there. But the ones I've seen that got to that point were barefoot. And sinking stops anyway at that point cause they just lay down 24/7 when the coffin bone comes that far. I just see the pain is more severe when there's something rigid touching.

As far as treatment when the coffin bone becomes exposed, the outcome is grim. It's been about 12 to 14 years since I've seen it, so maybe there have been new developments. But out of the 3 that stand out in my mind, we saved one by lifting it off the ground in a body sling. It was a breeding stallion and he was saved, but didn't have much quality of life. The other two were both ridden to death. One of them literally. See horses on their own at liberty wont generally push themselves to the point where he bone comes out. But if you get on them and ride em like a motorcycle, you can kill them. Kinda makes a person sick to think about and even harder to see in person

Now I saw the video on the op's horse . Nothing to worry about. It's not even in the same ballpark as the severity I'm explaining.
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