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New Farrier, Thoughts?

This is a discussion on New Farrier, Thoughts? within the Hoof Care forums, part of the Horse Health category

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        10-18-2013, 07:22 PM
      #21
    Trained
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by spirit88    
    If you read second post by OP it states this is only the third time this farrier has shod horse. So who knows how feet will look months down the road.
    Respectfully, if you really know what you're looking at, you would indeed have some idea as to how a particular 'style' of farriery is likely to progress, and it doesn't tend to take 3 or more goes to work out that nothing's doing.
    Patty Stiller likes this.
         
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        10-18-2013, 07:44 PM
      #22
    Banned
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by loosie    
    Respectfully, if you really know what you're looking at, you would indeed have some idea as to how a particular 'style' of farriery is likely to progress, and it doesn't tend to take 3 or more goes to work out that nothing's doing.

    For the most part I knew in 3 visits from farriers they werent going to fix anything. Last year I had no choice but to use farrier I didnt like his work. My horses had to have shoes so I put up with less then good work.

    This year only used new farrier 2 times then fired him but I didnt need shoes on my horse. So that's why I fired him if my horse would of been usable I would of used him any way....once again put up with less then good work.
         
        10-19-2013, 11:54 AM
      #23
    Yearling
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by spirit88    
    For the most part I knew in 3 visits from farriers they werent going to fix anything. Last year I had no choice but to use farrier I didnt like his work. My horses had to have shoes so I put up with less then good work.

    This year only used new farrier 2 times then fired him but I didnt need shoes on my horse. So that's why I fired him if my horse would of been usable I would of used him any way....once again put up with less then good work.


    Spirit. Since you've had poor farriers in the past and are hesitant to stick with another one, not trusting anyone anymore, how do YOU see the job he did? Is your horse looking better each time? Does your horse seem to be getting closer to where he should be? How do you rate your hooves now compared to 8 months ago or a year ago? I think you are knowledgeable enough to tell good from poor, and can judge improvement. And your farrier seems like one who is open to communication, and if your thoughts are back up the toe and the heels, put it to him as a question. Or ask what his plan is with the hooves. See if what he says is similar to what you want.

    Pictures are great, but hoof in hand is better. I've seen some pretty good distortions made by any camera. It's unavoidable. I take a lot of pictures of each hoof and take them home and pick out the ones that most resemble accuracy. A hoof angle can look way different if the camera slightly stretches it, or depending on the pastern angle based on how the horse is standing. This can make or break a decent trim in your presence.

    I use a hoof gauge. I do not want my horse's feet, any of them below 50 degrees. I can gauge every shoeing and if my eyes are seeing things accurately and see which direction they are going. The same with a length of toe measurement. Write them down each time. Measure toe from ground to the hair line.

    If Loosie, Patty , and I And others are each seeing something way different, I can only say we differ based on how much and where we are picking up on distortion by different things.
    Bottom line for me I will give this farrier a star for his angles. If his angles are Ballpark about 50 degrees front and 55 on the back Ballpark!, or above, then I would be judging the trim more of a good one. If the fronts are below 50 degrees Ballpark! I would question myself whether it's the farrier, improvement or not each shoeing, or how the angle of the pastern is looking based on how the horse is standing and why. Ask him what the angles are and toe length and right them down. Or take them yourself after he leaves. From what I see, the longer the toe and the more underrun the heels get = poor angle. In post #2, Waresbear thinks they are steep. I think they are good. Others see the angle is too low. Too low would mean that the toe is run forward and the heel is run forward.
         
        10-19-2013, 01:54 PM
      #24
    Banned
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by princessfluffybritches    
    Spirit. Since you've had poor farriers in the past and are hesitant to stick with another one, not trusting anyone anymore, how do YOU see the job he did? Is your horse looking better each time? Does your horse seem to be getting closer to where he should be? How do you rate your hooves now compared to 8 months ago or a year ago? I think you are knowledgeable enough to tell good from poor, and can judge improvement. And your farrier seems like one who is open to communication, and if your thoughts are back up the toe and the heels, put it to him as a question. Or ask what his plan is with the hooves. See if what he says is similar to what you want.

    Pictures are great, but hoof in hand is better. I've seen some pretty good distortions made by any camera. It's unavoidable. I take a lot of pictures of each hoof and take them home and pick out the ones that most resemble accuracy. A hoof angle can look way different if the camera slightly stretches it, or depending on the pastern angle based on how the horse is standing. This can make or break a decent trim in your presence.

    I use a hoof gauge. I do not want my horse's feet, any of them below 50 degrees. I can gauge every shoeing and if my eyes are seeing things accurately and see which direction they are going. The same with a length of toe measurement. Write them down each time. Measure toe from ground to the hair line.

    If Loosie, Patty , and I And others are each seeing something way different, I can only say we differ based on how much and where we are picking up on distortion by different things.
    Bottom line for me I will give this farrier a star for his angles. If his angles are Ballpark about 50 degrees front and 55 on the back Ballpark!, or above, then I would be judging the trim more of a good one. If the fronts are below 50 degrees Ballpark! I would question myself whether it's the farrier, improvement or not each shoeing, or how the angle of the pastern is looking based on how the horse is standing and why. Ask him what the angles are and toe length and right them down. Or take them yourself after he leaves. From what I see, the longer the toe and the more underrun the heels get = poor angle. In post #2, Waresbear thinks they are steep. I think they are good. Others see the angle is too low. Too low would mean that the toe is run forward and the heel is run forward.

    I see the job 2nd to last farrier did not good left toes long and heels under run. Every time he came his work got slopper and caused more issues then solved. He carved out to much sole causing stone bruising and in the end costing me more money. He also would leave one heel higher to straighten out a crooked legged pigion toed horse. This guy wouldnt listen and blew me off on a regular basis it pissed me off.

    After 4 years of crappy work and lame horses I fired him,only to hire another not good farrier. This farrier leaves heels under run and shortens toes from ground level to stand them upright. That caused my boy to go dead lame could hardly walk next day.

    So had this farrier out a few times and his work also got more sloppy. Every time these farriers came out nothing changed hoofs got worse looking. Yet they continued to slap shoes on flared feet just fit shoe to flare.

    I havent found ONE farrier that does any good every single one leaves heels under run and toes long. So iv come to the fact if I need shoes ill just have to except crappy work and hope my horses stay sound.

    Last farrier I fired guess if my horse is sound and ridable next spring ill probley have him back. We will need shoes to ride our trails. Like I said ill just have to put up with crappy work I have no choice there are no good farrier around.

    Yeah this last farrier kinda of listened but not really he in the end did what he wanted. Guess iam tired of searching for farriers only to find ones that arent good for now iam doing my own trimming.
         
        10-19-2013, 05:30 PM
      #25
    Yearling
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by spirit88    
    I see the job 2nd to last farrier did not good left toes long and heels under run. Every time he came his work got slopper and caused more issues then solved. He carved out to much sole causing stone bruising and in the end costing me more money. He also would leave one heel higher to straighten out a crooked legged pigion toed horse. This guy wouldnt listen and blew me off on a regular basis it pissed me off.

    After 4 years of crappy work and lame horses I fired him,only to hire another not good farrier. This farrier leaves heels under run and shortens toes from ground level to stand them upright. That caused my boy to go dead lame could hardly walk next day.

    So had this farrier out a few times and his work also got more sloppy. Every time these farriers came out nothing changed hoofs got worse looking. Yet they continued to slap shoes on flared feet just fit shoe to flare.

    I havent found ONE farrier that does any good every single one leaves heels under run and toes long. So iv come to the fact if I need shoes ill just have to except crappy work and hope my horses stay sound.

    Last farrier I fired guess if my horse is sound and ridable next spring ill probley have him back. We will need shoes to ride our trails. Like I said ill just have to put up with crappy work I have no choice there are no good farrier around.

    Yeah this last farrier kinda of listened but not really he in the end did what he wanted. Guess iam tired of searching for farriers only to find ones that arent good for now iam doing my own trimming.

    I know the feeling. One cut mine to short. One only remembered the angles I wanted if I was standing there. The worst was the last one- she had to have hooves high on the inside to straighten her leg and make her not toe out. I asked him to just trim her all even. He was a pretender. Pretended to do it. I went as far as getting xrays and he still told me one thing and did another.

    Some of this was my fault as I did not have the confidence to argue with a "professional". Until I really started studying to be a trimmer. I won't let anyone tell me anything now. My current farrier asks me "is this enough?" Now I work with him and he watches me trim my horse. I am going to start pulling shoes for him and cleaning up the hoof, then he can do the final rasping and put a shoe on.

    Which is why it's so great being together here. Learning, liking, disliking, being provoked to get out the books and learn more. I think many of us are here and learning the correct way because of some loser farrier screwing around with our horses.

    I interviewed a farrier last year. I asked him what my horse needed. He said all the right things. He was shoeing someone else's horse. Since then he never came back to the barn.
         
        10-19-2013, 05:35 PM
      #26
    Yearling
    Lightbulb

    Quote:
    Originally Posted by princessfluffybritches    
    Spirit. Since you've had poor farriers in the past and are hesitant to stick with another one, not trusting anyone anymore, how do YOU see the job he did? Is your horse looking better each time? Does your horse seem to be getting closer to where he should be? How do you rate your hooves now compared to 8 months ago or a year ago? I think you are knowledgeable enough to tell good from poor, and can judge improvement. And your farrier seems like one who is open to communication, and if your thoughts are back up the toe and the heels, put it to him as a question. Or ask what his plan is with the hooves. See if what he says is similar to what you want.

    Pictures are great, but hoof in hand is better. I've seen some pretty good distortions made by any camera. It's unavoidable. I take a lot of pictures of each hoof and take them home and pick out the ones that most resemble accuracy. A hoof angle can look way different if the camera slightly stretches it, or depending on the pastern angle based on how the horse is standing. This can make or break a decent trim in your presence.

    I use a hoof gauge. I do not want my horse's feet, any of them below 50 degrees. I can gauge every shoeing and if my eyes are seeing things accurately and see which direction they are going. The same with a length of toe measurement. Write them down each time. Measure toe from ground to the hair line.

    If Loosie, Patty , and I And others are each seeing something way different, I can only say we differ based on how much and where we are picking up on distortion by different things.
    Bottom line for me I will give this farrier a star for his angles. If his angles are Ballpark about 50 degrees front and 55 on the back Ballpark!, or above, then I would be judging the trim more of a good one. If the fronts are below 50 degrees Ballpark! I would question myself whether it's the farrier, improvement or not each shoeing, or how the angle of the pastern is looking based on how the horse is standing and why. Ask him what the angles are and toe length and right them down. Or take them yourself after he leaves. From what I see, the longer the toe and the more underrun the heels get = poor angle. In post #2, Waresbear thinks they are steep. I think they are good. Others see the angle is too low. Too low would mean that the toe is run forward and the heel is run forward.

    Sorry, this was directed at Sharpie not Spirit. Sorry, Spirit, I had a mental fart and mistook you for the OP.
         
        10-19-2013, 09:33 PM
      #27
    Trained
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by princessfluffybritches    
    If Loosie, Patty , and I And others are each seeing something way different, I can only say we differ based on how much and where we are picking up on distortion by different things.
    Bottom line for me I will give this farrier a star for his angles. If his angles are Ballpark about 50 degrees front and 55 on the back Ballpark!, or above, then I would be judging the trim more of a good one.
    Yep, absolutely, different opinions are obviously based on more or less experience with different types/signs of distortion. And I think working to specific angles is possibly why you're - and maybe the farrier in question is - missing or discounting the other signs. A certain toe angle and straight h/p axis can mean diddly if the laminae aren't tight, and judging a job on preconceived ideas of 'ideal' angles is not necessarily accurate. If you're talking about general angles, don't forget that commonly accepted 'ideal' angles are but the average of a small study of feral horses, so IMO well worth considering but not something to treat as 'gospel'. However, if you work towards those specific angles on your particular horse, because you have found these are the angles that are right for this particular horse, that is a different story. **I do suspect, from your previous posts, that you do have a fair bit of knowledge PFB, so pardon for any stating of the obvious or if I took you the wrong way.
    smrobs likes this.
         
        10-19-2013, 09:46 PM
      #28
    Weanling
    I have nothing useful to contribute, other than saying I love reading hoof analysis/critique threads. They are so interesting and informative! Thanks to all of you who take the time to post. I am a hoof thread voyeur.
         
        10-20-2013, 10:12 AM
      #29
    Weanling
    Quote:
    I would go ahead and discuss your concerns. Ask why. I still think it's a pretty good job, to me it looks like he's taken the toe back, notice the nice high angles,
    achieving high angles as NOT OK. What is really going on INSIDE the foot is NOT accurately reflected by trying to see external toe angles in a distorted toe like these. And laving high heels is unhealthy or the foot. The BONE angles are higher than the subtly distorted outside of the toe indicates.
    Quote:
    and he is not bringing the heel further back to sacrifice the nice angles your horse has.
    he needs to bring them back to get better health and function in the INTERNAL structures inside the foot.
    Quote:
    With nice angles like that, it shows that he's striving towards healthy.
    If he lowered the heels to where they belong AND backed up the toe to where it belonged the functional angle of the hoof would not be any lower than it is now. The current TRUE internal angle is being masked by an optical illusion of the distorted toe at the moment.
    Quote:
    The angles would not be that nice if he was going towards trouble.
    They are not that nice internally. Where it is important.
    loosie likes this.
         
        10-20-2013, 12:26 PM
      #30
    Yearling
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by loosie    
    Yep, absolutely, different opinions are obviously based on more or less experience with different types/signs of distortion. And I think working to specific angles is possibly why you're - and maybe the farrier in question is - missing or discounting the other signs. A certain toe angle and straight h/p axis can mean diddly if the laminae aren't tight, and judging a job on preconceived ideas of 'ideal' angles is not necessarily accurate. If you're talking about general angles, don't forget that commonly accepted 'ideal' angles are but the average of a small study of feral horses, so IMO well worth considering but not something to treat as 'gospel'. However, if you work towards those specific angles on your particular horse, because you have found these are the angles that are right for this particular horse, that is a different story. **I do suspect, from your previous posts, that you do have a fair bit of knowledge PFB, so pardon for any stating of the obvious or if I took you the wrong way.

    Loosie, never taken the wrong way! I understand angles are not one size fits all, it's what the horse presents what is needed. I think mostly live sole is a good way of getting it right. Flares need taking care of and foot needs preventative measures to reduce or eliminate more. What I'm saying, taking all into consideration is that in most cases, live sole is something to preserve , even if it means correcting other aspects, and even if those aspects will take longer. I've seen too many trims where someone didn't take the true angle of the coffin bone (heels a bit higher for the flex on impact), or had to take the heel back to the widest part of the frog and sacrifice angle that will stress the horse's tendons and joints. So we agree in a lot of ways, I feel if you follow live sole with the heels a few degrees higher, the hoof helps you get the toe and the heel back.

    I'm pretty much a person who treats each foot individually, and really don't follow mustang trim protocol because our horses are not mustangs, and live and are bred far differently than ferals.

    I've always enjoyed learning from you and enjoyed our discussions, as well as with others. Do you think most of our differences are based on what we think is how our priorities may be in a different order? Because along with you and others , I think the goals we stride for are very similar.
         

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