New Farrier, Thoughts? - Page 4 - The Horse Forum
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post #31 of 38 Old 10-20-2013, 12:50 PM
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Really interesting thread. I don't know all that much about hooves and trimming, so this is super cool. Subbing!
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post #32 of 38 Old 10-20-2013, 12:51 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Patty Stiller View Post
achieving high angles as NOT OK. What is really going on INSIDE the foot is NOT accurately reflected by trying to see external toe angles in a distorted toe like these. And laving high heels is unhealthy or the foot. The BONE angles are higher than the subtly distorted outside of the toe indicates. he needs to bring them back to get better health and function in the INTERNAL structures inside the foot. If he lowered the heels to where they belong AND backed up the toe to where it belonged the functional angle of the hoof would not be any lower than it is now. The current TRUE internal angle is being masked by an optical illusion of the distorted toe at the moment. They are not that nice internally. Where it is important.

I don't think angles should be too high. I believe that a hoof should be trimmed based on Live sole , each foot as an individual. I meant by "high angles" as appropriate ones, meaning not LT/LH. If an angle is too high, it is not following live sole. I've noticed in the pictures that some look like too high angle and some look like too low. Which leads me to believe that it may be a part of camera distortion.

The coffin bone has an angle that it needs and live sole mimics that angle, plus adding a few degrees higher on a heel to allow for ground contact on impaction. What I meant by gauge angles is that most horse are 50 degrees or above, but following live sole with a few degrees more is the Utmost guide.

If the hoof is truly at too high an angle, then yes, there's room to bring that heel back. But , I still would not back up that toe. Looks to me that it has been backed up appropriately at that point in time.

I don't find you or anyone else wanting or believing anything different than me. My guide is live sole. It doesn't sound like you or anyone else or me wants to end up with a negative palmer, flares, or a run forward toe or heel. The difference may be in priority or wording, but it's certainly not a difference in what a healthy hoof is.
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post #33 of 38 Old 10-20-2013, 04:56 PM Thread Starter
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I go out to a ride for a couple of days and get all behind on my own thread! :)

In that same album as the original post, the barefoot pictures are from about 18 months ago. Up until I moved this summer, the farrier who did that barefoot trim in the album did all his trims and shod him. He was always sound and never interfered.

Then I moved here, and had to find a new farrier, this fellow. Things were golden the first time, the second he started interfering left to right the same week and over-reaching at 3/4 weeks. The shod pictures in the album are about 20 minutes after the third shoeing with the new farrier. Went and did 30 miles yesterday, 5 days post trim, with no interfering or lameness other than a couple off strides after stepping on a big rock (shoes do diddly for protecting soles on big chunk gravel roads).

I am not disillusioned with farriers. I know there are good ones. What I was concerned I was seeing, and the reason for the thread, was the toe not being brought back and the heel being allowed to grow long/forward, and that with the square/not beveled shoes pushing the breakover point forward. That makes me worry about tendon/ligament strain in the long run along with toe separation. I will admit I didn't take any affront at him trimming the frog as I am somewhat accustomed to so many farriers doing it that I took that as normal, but I can definitely see how that is not helpful to the hoof mechanism and blood circulation as a whole.

Honestly, and as the farrier and I were joking about when he came out, my horse doesn't have pathologic feet, and if I wasn't riding the miles at speed that I am, he would be barefoot and I'd probably be touching up the above concerns with my rasp myself, but shoes make that much more difficult. I think the litmus test may be to see if he is over-reaching and tripping again at the end of this cycle.

I LOVE having so many smart people respond here. And Patty- you make a great point that I will have to bear in mind, that with strong walls, separation may not be so visible and in fact, the hoof wall may NOT be mirroring the internal structures like it ought to be in a healthy hoof, even if on first (my inexperienced) glance it appears as though it should be.
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post #34 of 38 Old 10-20-2013, 07:59 PM
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Quote:
I've seen too many trims where someone didn't take the true angle of the coffin bone
That is exactly what it sounded like you were saying - that the 'angles were nice' without taking into account what's going on inside. I don't believe the angles are 'nice'(**BTW Sharpie, this discussion has got so your horse's feet may sound like the epitome of bad examples.... they're FAR from it IMO) because I'm looking at the landmarks that tell me the hoof capsule is not aligned with the inner structures. Patty explained that much better I think though.

Quote:
Do you think most of our differences are based on what we think is how our priorities may be in a different order? Because along with you and others , I think the goals we stride for are very similar.
I sure hope our goals are the same - sound, strong hooves & horses they're attached to! My priorities in that matter are getting a horse comfortable(if they're not), ensuring that they are more comfortable or at least the same after a trim as before, and trimming (& convincing the owner to change diet or management practices that may be unhelpful) to *facilitate* the healthier, stronger growth of the hooves for the future. I hope other's priorities are also similar. I think our experiences may be the major reason for our differences. After learning conventional farriery & shoeing my own horses for a number of years, I started this 'game' around 14 years ago. I have done a number of courses, lectures & conferences over the years. I now specialise in rehab of pathological problems. I'm just saying this because I think it's different to your experience?
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post #35 of 38 Old 10-20-2013, 09:07 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by loosie View Post
That is exactly what it sounded like you were saying - that the 'angles were nice' without taking into account what's going on inside. I don't believe the angles are 'nice'(**BTW Sharpie, this discussion has got so your horse's feet may sound like the epitome of bad examples.... they're FAR from it IMO) because I'm looking at the landmarks that tell me the hoof capsule is not aligned with the inner structures. Patty explained that much better I think though.



I sure hope our goals are the same - sound, strong hooves & horses they're attached to! My priorities in that matter are getting a horse comfortable(if they're not), ensuring that they are more comfortable or at least the same after a trim as before, and trimming (& convincing the owner to change diet or management practices that may be unhelpful) to *facilitate* the healthier, stronger growth of the hooves for the future. I hope other's priorities are also similar. I think our experiences may be the major reason for our differences. After learning conventional farriery & shoeing my own horses for a number of years, I started this 'game' around 14 years ago. I have done a number of courses, lectures & conferences over the years. I now specialise in rehab of pathological problems. I'm just saying this because I think it's different to your experience?

You have a great amount of experience. I've never touched on pathological problems. My goals for the last 7 years have been to balance a foot using Duckett's dot, hoof mapping, and Live sole, and do it well. I'm currently learning to shoe Not because I want to shoe, but for educational purposes. For the same reason I study most of the trim protocols out there including farriery because each one has something to offer depending on the horse.

I have a clinic coming up in December. I know I have my own opinions on if a hoof shares the load with the sole or frog. My own horse -I backed her toes up just like any other horse and it was seriously difficult to keep her in gait. So she gets to keep a bit of toe and everything's fine. I guess that's what a few hundred years of inbreeding does, LOL.
A well balanced backed up hoof is what her pacing ancestors want. But my gaitin' princess needs a bit of toe for timing.
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post #36 of 38 Old 10-20-2013, 09:33 PM
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Hoof in hand is always more accurate. Different feet, but different angle of photoshots as well
I hope I did this right.
I marked these up for, well, not sure I marked them right.

I feel that the top one looks acceptable. Depends on if they have improved or not improved this shoeing. Is this hoof on it's way to better and better? Or worse and worse?
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Last edited by princessfluffybritches; 10-20-2013 at 09:42 PM.
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post #37 of 38 Old 10-20-2013, 10:14 PM
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^I think your first lines are probably a correct estimate, though the second pic appears that the horse has his leg back, flexed forward at the pastern, so lining up the pastern from this pic isn't correct - it's not half that bad. Need more of the horse pictured for more idea. Other relevant lines you could draw are the hairline(baring in mind it's flexibility) and a 'plumb bob' in the first to show approximately where the heel should be.
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post #38 of 38 Old 10-21-2013, 12:45 PM
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Great. To me, I think the deciding factor is what they looked like 6 and 12 weeks ago, or just pics prior to the new farrier. My thoughts are that if the farrier was making the previous farrier's work worse, they would look really worse by now.

My horse is still striving for what she needs, but that should be another post, also I have a problem.
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