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Odd hoof situation *pics*

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  • Hoof heel blow out
  • Horse stone hoof blowout

 
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    09-05-2009, 02:54 AM
  #11
Trained
Yup, definitely abscess. When this sort of thing results, it is often called a hoof 'blowout'.

Someone once reminded me when I said how guilty I felt that I didn't recognise my horse was in pain until it was chronic, that it's because they're prey animals. They are very good at NOT showing pain/discomfort & putting up with a lot without it being obvious... because as you no doubt know, predators pick the weakest looking animal in the herd. Unfortunately this trait makes it common for people to miss early signs until a problem has been ongoing for a long time - eg. Laminitis/founder. So don't feel bad about missing lameness, just try to be more vigilant in the future.

It looks as tho her heels were nice & short - that excess heel height wasn't the cause. What is her history, & that of your other horse that had the same thing happen? Is she 'transitioning' to barefoot? Is she rehabbing from some serious issues? Is she ridden bare on rough ground?

I suspect the abscesses happened from stone bruises. - Perhaps her heels were too short even? I would be definitely keeping her booted or padded when ridden for now at least, and use hoof protection on rough ground, until her feet become tough & strong, or ongoing if she lives on softish ground.

I don't know whether it's your story or not, but this is a good illustration of why I don't think it's helpful to force a horse to go bare without protection from scratch - while back hooves can often cope with most things without protection, it's not a given & if they're not strong & healthy enough, it's best to protect them, to avoid stone bruises, abscesses, and toe-first landings which can lead to other problems.
     
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    09-05-2009, 12:21 PM
  #12
Green Broke
Quote:
Originally Posted by NorthernMama    
But if it was an absess wouldn't I have seen something BEFORE it got to this stage? Unless these were caused by absesses, I have no experience with them.
Not necessarily, especially if you weren't riding them daily. I saw my mare just a bit "short" when walking in the field for one or two days, that was it. Then I found the blow out less than a week later.
     
    09-05-2009, 12:33 PM
  #13
Yearling
I would say abscess, caused by gravel or stone bruise. It could have blown out a while ago, like even months, and have some sepparation in the heel. The one pic of the sole post trim looks like there is a juicy spot - it looks a little red and irritated beside the frog. If she's in no discomfort, it's most likely old. Is the horse standardbred? I've seen this in a few of them - in fact I'm dealing with a weird abscess/gravel in one now. If this horse has been prone to quarter cracks, that could explain it.
Maybe paint that sole with iodine to harden it and considder shoeing? Just untill the heel grows out more. They kinda look like standardbred heels, that why I was wondering:)
Good luck! Hoof issued are such a bummer...
     
    09-05-2009, 01:01 PM
  #14
Green Broke
Yes both horses are stbd from Sudbury Downs.

No shoes. Sorry. Won't go there. Not sure what it would take for me to put shoes on a horse, but I know this isn't it. Especially since I've been through this already twice.

Lisa has been under my care and without shoes for 3 years. Her feet are usually beautiful. They are an inch wider in the heel and an inch shorter heel-to-toe than they used to be. She has a variety of terrain -- paddock is grass, clay and some rock. I ride on gravel road and in the bush. Neither horse has ever had a crack while with me.

Jade, (the second pics) had just been transitioned from shoes to barefoot when that happened. However, transitioning wouldn'texplain it happening again a few months later. Looking back now, I'm thinking that I didn't trim her properly after removing the shoes which is what is so important in transitioning.

I have transitioned three of my own horses from shoes and several others. None have had issues. None are ever sore after my trims. I've been lucky to have easy, healthy horses to work with and responsible owners. However, I don't do this for a living. Just to help people out in tough times.

Lisa's new growth is tough and strong. I don't think she needs anything special on it like iodine or shoes, etc. Walking on it will toughen it up enough for my purposes.

You know, I was up until 2:30 in the morning reading about abscesses -- barefoot people, shoe people and vets alike. No matter where I read, on the net or in my resource books, I couldn't agree that this is what happened. ESPECIALLY since this has happened three times on three different feet on two different horses but always in the same place. Just too coincidental for me to think it's abscess.

I emailed my backup farrier that I keep in touch with for emergency purposes. We'll see what comes from there for comments.
     
    09-05-2009, 07:27 PM
  #15
Trained
I wouldn't advise iodine, as it kills healthy tissue along with any infection, so it can ****** or slow new growth. Hardening the sole is not what you need, but rather thickening it, which only comes with growth.

Quote:
Originally Posted by NorthernMama    
No shoes. Sorry. Won't go there. Not sure what it would take for me to put shoes on a horse, but I know this isn't it.
Don't be sorry about that. While I don't think it's necessarily bad to put shoes on a healthy hoof, if part time, if they're applied well & the horse is well managed, I believe it's generally unhelpful & generally detrimental to put them on a sick foot.

Quote:
Lisa has been under my care and without shoes for 3 years. Her feet are usually beautiful. They are an inch wider in the heel and an inch shorter heel-to-toe than they used to be. She has a variety of terrain -- paddock is grass, clay and some rock.
That all sounds great. Looks as though you may help her further by backing up or rolling the toe more, and the whole foot would benefit from a mustang roll. I'd need more pics & angles if you would like real advice or critique on the trim tho.

Quote:
Jade, (the second pics) had just been transitioned from shoes to barefoot when that happened. However, transitioning wouldn'texplain it happening again a few months later. Looking back now, I'm thinking that I didn't trim her properly after removing the shoes which is what is so important in transitioning.
There are many factors that are important when 'transitioning' aside from the trim. Protecting the hooves until they're strong enough is one, especially if you're riding on rocky trails. 'Transitioning' can last anywhere from no time to a year or more, depending on the horse & situation. Regarding improper trims, it's possible the heels are a little too short, but only a guess without further pics to go on.

Quote:
I have transitioned three of my own horses from shoes and several others. None have had issues.
Not knocking you, as it's not at all necessarily your mistake that it's happened, but what do you call these probs if not 'issues'??

Quote:
Walking on it will toughen it up enough for my purposes.
....Or cause more abscesses & setbacks if without protection. I'd pad/boot that foot at least, on rough ground at least, at least until she's grown a fair bit of sole back.

Quote:
I couldn't agree that this is what happened. ESPECIALLY since this has happened three times on three different feet on two different horses but always in the same place. Just too coincidental for me to think it's abscess.
That's a fair point. Then I'd agree that they're not(or almost certainly not all) abscesses *from stone bruises*. Still think it's a hoof 'blow out' from solar abscess tho. Forgive me if you've mentioned it already, but at what level of soundness, 'transitioning', etc do you consider is Lisa at? You mention contracted heels widening, which could be the cause. If these horses are both same breed from the same farm, it's very possible that previous management/environment & possibly genetic foot conformation could be at the bottom of it.
     
    09-05-2009, 07:50 PM
  #16
Trained
Oh, forgot to mention your other girl's feet look like laminitis & 'negative palmer angle' may have been possible contributors in her blow outs. Again, without further pics, it's only an educated guess tho.
     
    09-05-2009, 09:35 PM
  #17
Green Broke
Thanks for the reply loosie. I'll try to address it:

Quote:
Originally Posted by loosie    
Hardening the sole is not what you need, but rather thickening it, which only comes with growth.
Agreed.

Quote:
That all sounds great. Looks as though you may help her further by backing up or rolling the toe more, and the whole foot would benefit from a mustang roll. I'd need more pics & angles if you would like real advice or critique on the trim tho.
Yes, I find I am not agressive enough on the roll, but I did go back after taking the pictures and make it better than what's posted above.

Quote:
it's possible the heels are a little too short, but only a guess without further pics to go on.
These pics aren't great to see what I usually do for heels due to the fact that she totally lost one. I tried to make her a bit more in balance without going tooooo far.

Quote:
Not knocking you, as it's not at all necessarily your mistake that it's happened, but what do you call these probs if not 'issues'??
Yes, these are problems, but not related to transistioning. Lisa is fully transitioned. 3 years barefoot; I can ride her anywhere.

Quote:
Or cause more abscesses & setbacks if without protection. I'd pad/boot that foot at least, on rough ground at least, at least until she's grown a fair bit of sole back.
That's the neat thing here actually, the new sole is already there and seems to be thick. What sloughed off was like excess. Like when a toe callus falls off, or the frog sheds. She's as happy as a pin.

Quote:
That's a fair point. Then I'd agree that they're not(or almost certainly not all) abscesses *from stone bruises*. Still think it's a hoof 'blow out' from solar abscess tho.
More comments to come from me hopefully on the whole abscess possibility. Waiting to see what my trimmer says; so far this forum is the only place convinced it is an abscess, but alot of people here are so I must give that some weight.

Quote:
Forgive me if you've mentioned it already, but at what level of soundness, 'transitioning', etc do you consider is Lisa at? You mention contracted heels widening, which could be the cause.
See above. Fully transitioned. Widening occurred two years ago.

Quote:
If these horses are both same breed from the same farm, it's very possible that previous management/environment & possibly genetic foot conformation could be at the bottom of it.
Not from the same farm; not the same bloodlines; not from the same trainers or owners. Only commonality is that both were raced at the same track and they live here.

As for my other horse and laminitis: I don't see that at all in her feet. Previous owner was a good owner, very responsible and gave full disclosure on her when I took her. No indication of laminits. Her foot was wet in the pic -- maybe that's throwing it off a bit.

What is "negative palmer angle?" New one on me.
     
    09-05-2009, 10:04 PM
  #18
Green Broke
I just looked up negative palmar / plantar angle. I never heard those terms before. Anyway, I think Lisa actually had this when she came to me -- on her fronts. It took me forever to be happy with her angles in the front and honestly, I still am looking for improvement there, but I'm content anyway. If Jade, the 2nd horse had this, I don't see it in the pic. I'm just not seeing what you're seeing Loosie. I don't see the old laminitis; I don't see the negative plantar angle. Are we looking at the same pic? LOL Maybe you need to tip your screen a bit more! (kidding, I'm kidding!)

Tomorrow will probably be a hoof day. I'm going to try to look more objectively at them. It's awfully hard when you see the same hoof every day.
     
    09-06-2009, 11:34 PM
  #19
Trained
Quote:
Originally Posted by NorthernMama    
These pics aren't great to see what I usually do for heels due to the fact that she totally lost one. I tried to make her a bit more in balance without going tooooo far.
I wouldn't try to balance one heel with the other *necessarily*, especially if the other's already too short.

Quote:
More comments to come from me hopefully on the whole abscess possibility. Waiting to see what my trimmer says; so far this forum is the only place convinced it is an abscess, but alot of people here are so I must give that some weight.
Yes, well as I've said, we only have your pics to go on, so I'd take what is said as 'educated(?) guesses'. If there's already a fair bit of new sole grown under the old, then it probably happened some time ago. Another possibility is it was an injury to the coronet, or feed/diet related.

Quote:
See above. Fully transitioned. Widening occurred two years ago.
It's still possible it's a 'transitioning' type thing. Often problems relating to contraction can take a long time to come through & evidence can be seen long after the foot is 'sound'. I think this is because it sometimes takes a pretty sound, healthy hoof before it has the capacity to push out all the old dead stuff.

Quote:
Not from the same farm; not the same bloodlines; not from the same trainers or owners.
Oh. Misunderstood your comments re breed & location.

Quote:
As for my other horse and laminitis: I don't see that at all in her feet.
Was suggesting this possibility due to the ridges - growth rings.

Quote:
I just looked up negative palmar .... I think Lisa actually had this when she came to me -- on her fronts. It took me forever to be happy with her angles in the front .... If Jade, the 2nd horse had this, I don't see it in the pic.
In the side-on pic, it appears her toe wall has a 'bull nose' or convex shape. That is an indication, altho as said, would need more & clearer shots to get a clearer idea. It's possible it's just because you've backed up or rolled her toe a lot.

Regarding Lisa's angles, while it's helpful to measure angles, know what the healthy average range of angles for fronts & backs are, etc, I don't agree with trimming to/for certain angles. Rather I'd be concerned about trimming in relation to the sole plane, and also the straightness of hoof walls & relieving areas of flaring & disconnection.
     
    09-07-2009, 02:54 PM
  #20
Green Broke
I definitely agree about the angles. I have tried the measuring system and it doesn't work for me. I try to work with what the foot is telling me, mathematics be dam*ed.

Yes I do back up toes a lot. For whatever reason, if I go to a more "traditional" toe length, my horses get stretched soles and kinda, sorta stumble in the bush, though it's more like just being too lazy to pick up those front feet! LOL

So, there is no clear consensus on what caused this, but there are a LOT more votes for abscess. -- As far as abscess: I'm thinking that if we define the abscess as a hematoma rather than an actual infection, then, yes I could see that: a solar abscess/hematoma where then the bruising separates the new growth from the old and hence the sloughing of dead material. Still seems funny though after the 3rd time around. Who knows? Maybe there's a gremlin in the paddock.

Thanks all -- this has been interesting.
     

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