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Opinions on where to start trimming these feet!!

14K views 55 replies 12 participants last post by  Kimmylikestojump 
#1 · (Edited)
I am not sure what kind of advice I can get without anyone actually seeing his feet in person but I thought it couldn't hurt to throw it out there and maybe discuss some opinions.

Bear with the crappy pictures I was dealing with a wiggly yearling.

Last week his feet looked like this,


He had never really been out of a stall (two years old in June). We picked him up about a week ago and I trimmed his hooves just before he came out. He is now turned out in a small 30' pen off from a run in. His poor legs wouldn't handle much more activity and I know that this whole feet thing is going to take -a while- to correct. The problem is that I haven't found a farrier "willing to deal with him" yet so I have been doing his trimming. Thats the short story.

Right front foot,





Left front foot,



Hind feet,





The right front foot obviously needs some help. I took off some toe but haven't done much else, where would you start? A lot of the sole is higher than the hoof walls are, but because of this its as hard as a rock! Any special advice to chiseling that down?!

With his hind feet... it is obvious to me that his heels need to come down/back a bit. Right now his sole is longer (or higher) than his hoof wall and some of his frog is longer (higher) than the sole. In this case am I correct to assume that the sole needs to be slowly scraped down back where it belongs? Its as hard as a rock from him walking on it and I did not have any luck scraping at it with a hoof knife.
Hind feet question #2.... In the pictures of the hind foot that I had held up it is clear that the left side of his wall needs to come down considerably. His (heel bulb?) is actually higher than the right. Lowering that will eventually draw the heel bulb back down, correct?


Edited to ad -
Full body shots if they help. Here is how he stood in the very first picture,


And here he is after the little nipping I've done,
 
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#2 ·
As a farrier I would recomend finding a reputable farrier to take care of your horse. I like to use domosaden gel on ill behaved horses. It makes a better experience for your horse and you plus keep everyone safe. Most vets will sell this to you for this purpose. Good place to get farrier names is your vet office. Looks like his feet will shape right up with they proper tools and knowlegde. Keep him on a schedule and pick his feet out regularly. Good luck.
 
#3 ·
Hi there,

Great you realise you won't get accurate advice here, based only on a few pics. So I'm guessing you also appreciate the importance of doing your own homework & learning the principles behind the practices. Check out the links in my signature for more info.

Poor boy, he's lucky to have found someone to care for him & I hope he comes good for you. I would personally strive, ASAP to find a top farrier/trimmer in the area who is experienced in correcting hoof deformation & considering that right fore, I'd want to get xrays & a good equine vet's advice too. But in the meantime...

I think of primary importance at this point is to reduce those huge heels. I would do it gradually, tho it's hard to say from these pics, it seems that a fair bit could come off the fronts immediately. That underrun right one may need to be bevelled, to bring the heels back & releive the crushing without reducing height/angle much. The toes, while they don't look long, need to be kept under control, along with the quarters, in order to allow the heels to relax back.

It looks to me - & considering he's lived in a small pen - that his soles are likely not flat as they seem, but there is an aweful lot of dead material that hasn't exfoliated. The frog apexes all look like they have a bit of depth(tho perhaps little at front toes, esp right. What with getting those heels down & more movement, that excess sole should start to fall away & you shouldn't have to do any real carving, except for the bars.

So I'd say exercise is also extremely important. But I notice you said 'his poor legs wouldn't handle it'. Why do you say that? Is he lame? Does he struggle? I would keep him in a large area/paddock, but perhaps to start with, without company that may push him around, so that he will move more if he feels like it but not be forced. If he is struggling, I'd suggest a good vet sooner rather than waiting.
 
#4 ·
Very helpful loosie, Thanks for your thoughts.

The one new farrier that I found put me on a waiting list. One of my regular farriers came out and she did not even pick up his back because "they are fine"..... :? Another guy "prefers not to trim colts and stallions" so I am contacting my favorite local farrier now to get some opinions, but she does not really do correctional trims. I am kind of surprised by the chicken sh*t farriers. There are many, many other local farriers but its well known that I do not like any of them! My next bet is to haul the colt to the vet and farrier two hours away.

But I notice you said 'his poor legs wouldn't handle it'. Why do you say that?

No, he is not lame. This past week that he has been here is his first time out of a stall. His eye site is still "off" (if you lead him you have to watch out for things even as large as trees, the depth must be off or it may just be forgin to him that hes about to smack into something) he bruises like a grape when he bumps into something, he almost always skins himself. He occasionally runs into the panels in his pen when goofing around so a bigger area would offer him a space to actually run and I am planning to give him a few more weeks confined to a trot. A trot, at this point, is very new and exciting to him. He would surely hurt himself running and at the very least his jello legs need time to strengthen and it would be nice if his slipper foot was a bit more correct before someone asked it to carry his galloping body.
 
#6 ·
occasionally runs into the panels in his pen when goofing around so a bigger area would offer him a space to actually run and I am planning to give him a few more weeks confined to a trot. A trot, at this point, is very new and exciting to him.
Oh, fair enough then! Gee, hope he comes good & hasn't got eyesight probs too. Yeah, if he's willing & able to trot for the first time, that's hopefully good enough to loosen some of the crud on his soles, so you can better see where you're going with hoofcare.
 
#5 ·
Definitely not a farrier so no advice there. That stinks you can't find a corrective farrier closer to you. If you were a bit closer, I'd send mine to you - some of the things he's fixed (not mine) are pretty amazing. I can ask him though if he knows of someone if you'd like.
 
#9 ·
Ha ha to your reply to BNT! Tho I do agree basically with BNT's sentiments there. Not assuming it's necessarily you/that horse local farriers may have a prob with, but I don't think BNT is either - just posing the question. Is it possible the horse isn't the easiest & a little more training may be necessary?

I won't do difficult horses - it's just not worth it. However, I am happy to put in some time with a fractious horse as a trainer first, if the owner's open to it, or if they don't want to pay me to train, I'll give them some time to do it themselves & another chance or 2 before telling them to go elsewhere.
 
#10 ·
Loosie, he stood fine :) I guess my initial post made him sound very bad. By "willing to deal" I meant by taking the time to trim his hooves slowly and properly. I took some heel down today and I guess will just keep plugging along.
I am very proud of what the little fella has learned in a week here! He has to nibble on his lead rope to keep busy and he only has the patience to do about two and a half hooves at a time. I switch to another horse and come back to trim his other half or just lead him around for a minute then continue. He doesn't kick, wiggle, carry on, yank his feet back, run people over or anything. I guess his head wiggles while he chews on his ball or lead rope. And his patience is about up, like I said, after two feet but if a farrier cannot work with that then they should find a new career.

My Quarter Horses stand without halters and leads, my stallions are reasonable gentlemen, my draft mares stand without stocks and I only have one mare who can be a real pistol as well as the occasional rescue which the farriers are "informed" of. The problem is not my horses the problem is horrible farriers in the area, which you could ask anyone around. This is why I've started trimming the horses myself, I'm just not 100% sure where to start with this guy. Or how slow is slow. So if I can find a qualified person I'll be a happy girl! In the mean time the responses from a complete stranger... assuming the farriers in the area 'know of me' and do not like me.... were extremely un-helpful and rather annoying.
 
#12 ·
By "willing to deal" I meant by taking the time to trim his hooves slowly... only has the patience to do about two and a half hooves at a time. ... but if a farrier cannot work with that then they should find a new career.
Now this is going off on a tangent & don't mean to get hung up or make it an argument, but I want to tell you that I find that attitude quite unreasonable.

As I said, I personally let people know if a horse isn't up to it, I'm happy to spend the time to help/train. BUT that's assuming I have the time, or the owner reschedules for another time, and my time is valuable, so it's not something I generally give away for nothing. If I were to just turn up at a job without the prior arrangement that I had budgetted extra time, etc, no, I generally wouldn't be prepared to just trim slowly, potter at 2 feet at a time with breaks in the middle, etc. The usual small fee for a trim doesn't make that worthwhile. If someone's paying for a trim, THAT is all they're paying for. And I'm perfectly happy with my career thankyou. If people don't like that arrangement, I think they're expecting too much from my 'career'. It is the owner's responsibility to ensure the horse is ready & comfortable about trimming, or to explain & arrange alternatives.

Some farriers wouldn't even want to have to train a horse, others may not be good at it anyway. If you're employing a farrier to do a job, he's got to be able to do that job reasonably efficiently & without undue risk & if that's not the case, it's entirely reasonable IMO that he doesn't want to do it. ....Not that I reckon making up excuses about why not is a respectful way of dealing with it. Both farriers & owners are good at beating around the bush, making excuses, ignorring issues. I like to personally tell it like I see it & I think there would be much less miscommunication if everyone did.

...Now I'll get back in my box!
 
#13 ·
If you want something done right, do it yourself. Then you can trim whenever, do only the fronts or hinds, keep the sessions short...easier on you and the horse. It would cost plenty for a farrier to come out and do the same. I would rather see one hoof done well, than 4 crazy trims and a horse doing battle.
Little by little is also a good approach, as it give the horse time to adjust. Talking about tendons coaxed to stretch. I can see that he's right handed. The right side on both fronts\ and hind are flared forward, the left side upright. This is proof of how he's been weighting them. The right side moreso, splatting it and the left side not weighted and allowed to grow straight up. So you've got two different pathologies on each side to deal with. No matter, just need to learn what those pathologies are and deal with them accordingly. In other words, the upright feet have grown club. If he was born club, it wouldn't be fixable, you'd lame him when you lower the heels. Without xrays, which should be paramount for clubs, lowering the heel in small increments and checking his comfort are important. If he doesn't like his new heel height, stop right there on lowering the heels. If any xrays can be done, I'd get the LF Lateral to see where the bone is. Once you know where the bone is, you know exactly what you can and cannot to with the trim.
The most important thing is that the bone must be protected from the ground. That means there must be enough hoof length to keep it off the ground, or will cause damage that won't repair. From the bottom of the groove beside the apex, to the top of the wall height, there should be 3/4" distance. (lay a rasp across the hoof at the apex and measure down to the groove bottom. IF you get 1/2", he needs boots for protection and you shouldn't trim the walls at all. You should also have 3/4" from the bottom of the groove to the top of the heel platforms as well. As long as you maintain that distance when trimming, the bone will always be safe and you won't have gotten too short.
There's the DDFT tendon in the back and the extensor tendon in the front and the two work together like a pulley system. When you lower the heel, it asks the DDFT to stretch to allow that new heel platform to be in on the ground. If you lower the heel too fast, the tendon can't get there and the heel won't touch the ground. So, little by little and coax it all, is good.
Looks to me like the interior of the foot needs the most work. There is no sole, its all excessive bar growth. So, with sharp knife and soft hoof, so you can sliver with precision, instead of hacking, and working to reduce the interior, will ensure that it won't be sticking up higher than the wall and acting like huge stones in his foot. This is how abscesses are born. Bar material is harder than sole and won't slough out like sole. You have to reduce it manually....again, slowly, sliver by sliver every few days. Its all got to come down together.
I'm so sorry for this guy, being in a stall so long. Thank goodness he is young. Definitely have faith. Any normal horse this age out there romping around still doesn't have enough movement to create the development like a wild horse would have and this guy has been made to completely miss the boat on that one. So, its a long road ahead, but he will bounce back.
I'd put him outside 24/7 for the movement and to consistent movement, not the movement that comes from being pent up in a stall. Me? I'd probably never put him in a stall again, but if he's going to bed in the barn with "family" and that's the routine, ok. Does he have any strange stall habits or attitudes from being caged so long?
If you can post some better pictures, I can can draw lines and help you along. I'm only as good as your pictures, though.
If you are interested, these are the ones I need: one of each for every hoof....

Solar Shot: pick up hoof, bend it up to face you. Center the camera right on the halfway point of the frog. Aim camera directly above the bottom of the hoof. Stay 2' away and don't worry about the background.

Heel Shot: pick up hoof and let hang by one hand cupping the front of the pastern. Lean forward so you can see well all the way to the toe, heels, pastern and part of cannon. This shot I can help you the most with.

Solar/side shot: pick up hoof, get to the side facing the horse and above level plane, so that I can see the depth of the groove at the apex.

Side shot: Camera literally on the ground, centered at the side between toe and heel.

Front Shot: Camera on the ground, 4' out front and both feet caught in the picture and up to and including the knees. Only need 1.

Need clean feet/hard, clean surface. Can't see a foot buried in snow or grass, so even a small piece of plywood that he can stand on for a minute will do. Keep the camera 2' away from the hoof. Easier to position and ensures that focus will be fixable.

I've been doing line work on hooves for years....for free. Let's just say that I love him just as much as you do, lol. So, if you want some input, I'm here....
 
#15 ·
Missy, not meaning to pick, just give some different ways of looking at some of your points, as food for thought...

Without xrays, which should be paramount for clubs, lowering the heel in small increments and checking his comfort are important. If he doesn't like his new heel height, stop right there on lowering the heels.
I think that gradual changes & comfort are always important, regardless of xrays. Agree too that if the horse is more uncomfortable after removing heel, it can mean he should be left with a bit more than seems 'ideal' for the moment. If his heels are/get left higher than the frog, frog support pads can be important, for him to get adequate heel stimulation in comfort.

The most important thing is that the bone must be protected from the ground. ...IF you get 1/2", he needs boots for protection and you shouldn't trim the walls at all.
Agree that the bone needs to be protected *and supported* from the ground. I disagree totally that that means walls should be left long though. I think that can be one contributor/cause of 'sinking' and thin soles. I think walls should *generally* be kept quite short and not allowed to overgrow, regardless of the state of the soles, but if soles are very thin, the horse does indeed need protection, to be kept on yielding ground & wearing boots with pads when working. As for precise measurements & angles, they're nice to understand how they've come about as a guide, but still, all horses & hooves are individuals.

When you lower the heel, it asks the DDFT to stretch to allow that new heel platform to be in on the ground. If you lower the heel too fast, the tendon can't get there and the heel won't touch the ground.
:? Well I suppose with very severe changes & tight muscles perhaps the heels may not touch the ground for a little while, but never experienced anything remotely of the sort, so that's only hypothetical to me. It isn't really the tendons that stretch/contract, but the muscles they're attached to. Massage can help them stretch quicker, but I don't think that's the only(or major) reason not to change angles too suddenly. If the back of the foot is too sensitive from lack of function, dropping it to 'ideal' height may just make the horse MORE inclined to land toe-first due to discomfort. If the horse is laminitic or otherwise has weakness/disconnection, lowering the heels & the ensuing stronger pull from the DDFT can potentially worsen the 'rotation'. If hooves have been maintained in a particular form for a long time, the inner structures, including the bone can remodel. Eg. the sensitive frog & corium can be a lot lower in relation to the capsule on a long-term high heeled horse, so taking too much can get you in the red, in more ways than one.

My general guide is to take heels, as with the walls on the rest of the foot, down to, or within a few mm(say about 6 tops) from the sole plane, never rasping or paring into live sole. Tend to treat the bars pretty much the same as the rest of the wall material. This tends to allow 'club' feet to take themselves into account too.
 
#14 ·
NewImage -- hopefully by you working on his feet, he will develop more patience so a farrier will be willing to work with your horse. I have to agree that asking a farrier to spend what sounds like 4 times as long as usual on one horse is unreasonable. That said, maybe you could offer to pay extra for the extra time involved?

Also, you asked about the heel bulbs being uneven -- as you implied, first the hoof itself needs to have proper shape before the frog will develop proper shape. You may have some thrush in there as well, which can affect the shape of the frog so be aware of that.

Loosie, as usual, gave good advice. For your next round of pics, it would be good if the feet were cleaner and also on flat, solid ground. Cement is perfect if you have it available.
 
#21 ·
One thing though, the tendon does stretch and stores energy like an elastic band.
Wasn't clear - yes, they have a bit of stretch, but very little. It's the muscles that need to adjust.
 
#18 ·
I have to agree that asking a farrier to spend what sounds like 4 times as long as usual on one horse is unreasonable.

Now this is going off on a tangent & don't mean to get hung up or make it an argument, but I want to tell you that I find that attitude quite unreasonable.

This is just continuing the unhelpful and completely beside the point argument but I do not see how everyone is getting the impression that a farrier is being asked to train the colt and/or spend "four times as long as usual" on him. Read carefully now. The colt stands fine. Half way threw the third foot he is ready for a break. Since he has been out of a stall for a total of eight days now in the history of his existence IF he is willing to stand stock still for two feet, asks for a break and then will stand stock still for the remaining two feet - he has earned this! Arguing this is pointless since none of you have met the colt, I am not asking you to trim him yourself and I have not had a farrier turn down trimming him in any way related to his temperament nor "my horrible history". In addition, I did not ask anyone to comment on whether or not they'd trim such a ***** of a colt, I asked "where to start trimming these hooves" until I find a farrier that I know will do a good job getting his feet on track BEFORE he is much closer to two years old. Further more I have NOT implied that I would like a farrier to spend all afternoon catching a wild mustang, being yanked around by un-handelable feet and then take fifteen breaks while we walk him around in between feet. I HAVE implied that the colt stands for two feet, the farrier can then trim the horse standing right next to the colt giving him a minute (note: the farrier will be busy with other horse feet). When the second horse is finished the colts remaining two feet could be finished without so much as a tail swish. The idea that it should take anyone four times as long to trim this colt is ridiculous. So I respectfully disagree with your opinion on my unreasonable attitude. Again, if a farrier cannnot understand that the colt needs to be trimmed soon and we can do this right now with NO argument from him if we trim two feet, walk literally twenty feet away and trim another horse, then return to do the colts last two feet... then you are in the wrong business by dealing with any animal. This is not unreasonable to ask and the only time longer it would take is the less than one minute to walk to the next horse and the less than one minute to walk back to the colt. So sure, if the hypothetical farrier in question here would like to be paid extra by the step I guess I can arrange that. :wink:
Loosie, your other advice was very helpful. Thanks.
I understand that ideally the horse should be still for a farrier to do the job and I have never implied otherwise. I have never expected a farrier to "train my horses" as I expect that my horses will give no reason for the farrier to have to correct them!



Thank-you for your very helpful post Missy! If any of these photos are good enough, I would greatly appreciate the help. It is to dark in the barn with the cement for pictures & the colt did not want to stand two feet on the board at the same time. He would however keep one foot there. So I understand if these do not work perfect for you either but I gave it a go.... :)

Fronts


Left Front Hoof






 
#22 ·
This is just continuing the unhelpful and completely beside the point argument but I do not see how everyone is getting the impression that a farrier is being asked to train the colt and/or spend "four times as long as usual" on him. Read carefully now. The colt stands fine.... - he has earned this!
I did 'read carefully' thank you & it was you who said you found it unreasonable that farriers wouldn't take whatever time, do whatever horses. I don't recall anyone saying you should expect more of the horse after a week, he shouldn't have breaks, whatever. I'm not arguing anything, just saying I think your attitude about what farriers should & shouldn't do is unreasonable IMO. I don't think it is 'beside the point' at all, if it can help you or others work out who's responsibilities are whos, between farrier & owner, to make for better, more helpful relationships.
 
#23 ·
Re those pics, I reiterate that I think concentrating on gradually reducing those heels all round is the most important - I'd be keeping them down level with the sole and reducing them as often as possible without rasping into the sole plane - eg. perhaps a couple-few mm twice a week, if they allow. Again, the RF looks like it will need to be rasped on a bevel in relation to what is currently the ground surface, in order to shorten those underrun heels & get them back without getting into the sole.

The cruddy walls esp on his backs will need to be kept back & cracks, holes, etc cleaned out. I'd suggest soaking all feet regularly in strong saline or such, to treat infection. I would cut off all the daggy, loose bits of frog & any that looks thrushy.

That's some pretty amazing quarter flaring on that LF! That needs dealing with too. I've marked the solar pic, to show approximately where I might take it back to. I would bevel them back well into the 'white line', because that is obviously very stretched & the footprint should be about there. While it's hard to tell from the pic, my lines are still in the lamellar area, not in so far as I think is true sole. You DO NOT want to go into that. I also marked the front-on one, to show how it would look. I don't necessarily worry too much about dressing the flare off from the outside, if it doesn't interfere with the horse's movement, and in this sort of case it would mean taking too much hoof wall so there may not be enough left for protection or wall integrity. However if you intend to get boots for him, it will need to be dressed to a fair degree, to get any to fit that foot - I'd probably be inclined to do a few trims on him first & allow the well attached walls to grow down a fair bit before doing this.
 

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#26 ·
I don't know why anyone was giving New_Image a hard time because she basically rescued this horse. She is not the one that caused him to be overgrown or unhandled. She is giving the horse a good home and trying to sort him out. So the rude posts were, well, rude.

I just wanted to say that his feet are still horribly overgrown and I would worry about him romping and running around on them. Some of them look clubby from all the overgrown heels, but the front right actually scares me the most, because although the hoof is trying to grow at a natural angle he doesn't have a flat foot to stand on and it looks like he could really pull a tendon if he romped around too much on it like that.

I have been doing my own hoof care for years and years. Over ten years. I am pretty confident cutting in to a hoof but these feet are so overgrown that I really think you should try to find a good farrier. I would if I were in your shoes. If his feet get under control and you want to trim them yourself later, that is great. But he still needs a LOT of hoof taken off.

He has so much to take off and the boundaries are not really clear because of all the retained sole. I think it would be quite a job for even a skilled farrier, so I don't think this is something an owner would want to tackle themselves. Especially because he is still a growing horse and you want to set him up for success.

Just my 2 cents worth. Best of luck with your beautiful new boy. :)
 
#33 ·
I don't know why anyone was giving New_Image a hard time because she basically rescued this horse. She is not the one that caused him to be overgrown or unhandled. She is giving the horse a good home and trying to sort him out. So the rude posts were, well, rude.
I suppose BNT could have put his 'questions':wink: differently, but I don't get what other posts were construed as 'rude', except for OP's 'changing career' and 'read carefully' comments. Again, no one said anything remotely blaming the person for the horse's overgrowth or lack of handling, only her attitude towards farriers not wanting to deal with it.

I really like what you have to say in the rest of your post, by the way.

However if you intend to get boots for him, it will need to be dressed to a fair degree, to get any to fit that foot

Boots?
You don't know about hoof boots?? Check out easycareinc.com
 
#27 ·

This is a pic of the existing Left Front. The blue lines show the height of the heel, the balance between them and the outline of the hoof. The thin white lines are all bar. When this hoof is weighted, the height of those bar walls jam down at an angle...pinching in under the frog. The white center line is the run of bone. Heel balance is the line that runs between the heels being perpendicular to the bone. So, you can see that the right heel is higher than the left, bar also. The outline of the frog is where the groove is and red arrow pointing to the higher heel getting it harder, so bruised.


This is the same pic. I just saved it and kept going. The horizontal white line is the new height of the heels and balanced. The line going around the hoof is the new wall height, which is correcting the balance back to front. If you look at the new heel line, together with the new wall line, You can imagine the balance by looking at these two lines together and imagining a perfect sunset on the water. The heavy white line going around the hoof under that, is how much that bar needs to be brought down. The bar ramps at the back should start at the front by merging up out of the sole halfway back on the frog and ramp straight up to meet the new heel height dead on. The line in front of the ramps, its height flows forward to be at the height shown.
The picture below that shows the finished trim and what it should look like.
The heavy white contour lines show the new shape of the interior of the hoof in relation of bar to hoof wall.

You can print this pic and take it to the barn with you. You can literally draw the heel balance line where its on the back of the heel platforms right on the hoof and rasp down to meet those marks. You can also do the same to establish the new wall and use it as a guide as well. All the solid white area is a surface that is flat to ground. Then after you arrive on the wall height, the thin black lines shows the bevel on that surface.
Because he's been standing in a stall so long, he hasn't been moving and torquing on that excess growth. His parts and pieces have have stubbornly been able to hold their places, which is an advantage. It means that you can get down to those marks safely and can even go further, but enough change for now. Reverse the rasp in your hand and lay it on the heel platform and pull back towards yourself as you take the heels down, then normally working your way around the hoof, down to the new wall height.
These lines can be identified on the hoof, marked to arrive. The balance will be improved front to back and side to side. Heels coming down a little bit and enough change for now.
It will be good to tweak, like once a week to keep moving towards your goal. His parts and pieces will better define themselves and it will be easier to see after this trim. The goal is to let him get his ducks in order from this trim, so the hoof can talk to you and you can listen, so it will be easier.
The bevel should leave 1/16" of white line still attached to the edge of the sole from 10-2 o'clock on the hoof (center line is at 12 o'clock) and everthing beveled at a 45 degree angle on out from there. On the sides the bevel fades out to only take the outer half of the wall away in bevel and should carry back to include the sides of your heel platforms. (but not the back of the platforms. The heel balance line should look just like I drew it. Straight, balanced and flat to ground and the bevel. (angled short black lines on each side.

Just what you've trimmed so far, I can see the positive reaction. The breakover has come back and the frog, which was stretched forward, is receding back to where the true apex is. The mess in front of the apex, is leftover frog (black) which needs to be cleaned up off the sole....gently, carefully scraped off. What looks to be a hole in front of the apex is the toe wall height showing itself and will be diminished when you arrive at this trim. For now, don't lower the bar any more than what the line shows going around the frog. After this trim, we start slivering the bar with more care.
You can post pics after the trim to see if you "arrived" or in a week and I'll do this again to help you move forward.
It takes me awhile to do this, as I'm not just squaring up lines, but thinking about comfort, balance, the run of bone and many other things. So, it takes time. Best to put patience on your sleeve for me and the horse. The pictures will keep coming on each foot until I get them done for you. If you have any questions, please ask. :)





 
#31 ·
Hi Missy,

Glad we seem to be on... a similar page at least, so I think you will probably agree that your pics and notes(of which admittedly I didn't read all of) will give OP a bit of an idea, a guide perhaps, but that hard & fast measurements & advice on what 'should' be can only be that - a rough guide.

But I just don't get what you're trying to show/tell at all on the one below??



What will happen with this finished trim and improved delivery to the ground.
Pay attention to not only where on the hoof the line is hitting, but also the shape of the lines. What you see here, you should see on the hoof when you're done.
 
#29 ·


Oh, this is a special hoof indeed and in more trouble. This one has been taking more weight than the other. It could be the way he circled in his stall or preferred to stand that way. (pain) Thrush is your enemy. You can't build a hoof if thrush is eating it away.
Right now, the heel shots are arguing with me, but this hoof is getting the founder treatment. I tried to draw gentle angles to help keep your sanity, but the truth of it is P3 may be down on its nose and a feeling of preserving the wall height on the front 1/2 of the hoof. The heels do need to come down to get the back of P3 more ground parallel.
Instead of running a straight line from the back of the heel platforms to the breakover point, I only lowered the back half and left the area around the apex (from 9 to 3) alone. Preserving all height in the front half. It also has an advantage of the existing rocker shape (like a rocker shoe that relieves pressure) so good. See how far back the breakover point is? How far back the existing toe needs to come? That's toe wedge. It's that distance that has pulled down on P3's nose. This must be relieved a) because that excessive overhang of toe, at the second when the hoof leaves the ground, rips upward at the same angle that a 45 bevel would totally relieve. Rips the white line apart from the ground up, losing hold to bone. That torque of long breakover flares out the walls and causes flare (skirting), but it also pulls forward stretching frog, bars and heels with it. He has looong heels, but they are not so high on this foot, because they are at a colllapsed angle from the pull forward finally making him walk on the backs of the heel platforms, instead of the tops. b) If P3's nose is low and you find yourself needing to preserve that wall height, then there's another reason to take the heels down slowly. You must preserve the back to front balance and wait for the toe. c) When you have such an excessive toe length out front, at breakover, it stabs into the ground. The pressure goes right up the hoof wall to the band. I've just learned that that pressure increases as it goes up the wall. Look at the short angle coming down the front from the band.
There are two lines there, but you can't see one. One is slightly steeper...the existing angle, which is an angle that is tucked in tighter than it should be. This is caused by that pressure going up the wall and pinching in hard right at the bottom point of that short line. I have seen effects of that pressure happening on others, and it bites right in there, considerable pain and windows of hoof wall having to be removed to relieve the pressure. That is another reason why that toe must go back. d) The excess toe causes balance reaction and forward running cannon and now the path of pathology reaches the knees and beyond.
Anyway, I drew that thin black line at the toe, to show you how to go about the shape while you gradually work on it. Think " a whopper of a mustang roll." What it will do, is bring the toe back towards the red dot and roll with the punches in motion to relieve that pressure going up the wall. See how the shape of my thin black line will roll better than the existing. Form is function.
I've drawn the bone in. I don't claim to have xray eyes, but that's what it feels like. This is not trim instruction, but a "get to know this foot" session.
I'm still working on the heel shots. The red lines are a hoof that has arrived.
Boots and pads are especially beneficial for this kind of hoof. The padding allows a soft/protected bottoming out when weighted, then gives back and says to the bone...get back up there where you belong....with every step.
If you don't coax the bone, you'll be in a tight trimming corner forever.
Definitely feed trace minerals. If he's getting them in a bagged feed, then put out free choice as well and let him decide. Copper's a biggie for hoof health and spitting out thrush, and what has me suspect of a copper deficiency....the color of his coat.
 
#30 ·
This is all very interesting and thank-you so much again for taking the time!

and what has me suspect of a copper deficiency....the color of his coat.
Can you explain how the color of his coat gives you that impression?
I actually have a herbalist coming out to muscle test a few horses, him included.
 
#32 ·
Some say that dark horses need more copper than light ones. I don't know about that but copper deficiency is commonly associated with a 'washed out' looking coat & the colour will deepen when it's adequately supplemented. *However* balance of nutrients is also important & copper is not the only 'ingredient' that may cause the coat to look washed out or such. Copper is also only required in minute amounts and is one of many that is toxic if overdosed. Therefore I would consult a nutritionist about more complete & balanced nutrition. FeedXL.com is one good option for that sort of thing.
 
#34 · (Edited)
The brown that's in his black color, fading around the eyes, the last side shot I posted. He'll probably get a lot darker with the addition of copper. His true color will come out.
What I'm used to is seeing the deficiency on a normally kept horse that sees the sun. The copper deficiency allows the sun to bleach the coat. I supplemented copper to a horse the same color as yours and turned him jet black by fall and he was IN the sun all summer. In your case, since this guy hasn't seen the sun very much, I suspect that its straight up copper deficiency. Zinc's in there too, especially for black horses and both work together to fight iron.
Free choice trace minerals are one of the best moves you make. That and balancing the majors. Calcium must be at a ratio with phosphorus of 1.5:1 and calcium to magnesium should be 2:1. The calcium/phosphorus ratio is especially important to avoid physitis in growing youngsters. Not even 2:1 is acceptable. Adult horses can take some abuse on this for the winter hay being low in phosphorus or calcium being too high and drowning out the phosphorus, but not the kids.
I'm glad that you find this interesting, but I wanted to check with you on this, because I'm doing this so you can trim. If the plan is to call in a farrier, I certainly don't need to tell him what to do.....just wondering.
 
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