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Please help with mapping!

3K views 14 replies 4 participants last post by  Wind of change 
#1 ·
Hello,
Below are my second horse's hooves. Right hoof is steep, and it looks like hoof club. This horse is mooving very well, from heels. But I have problem with mapping, especially with left hoof. I don't understand this hoof. Could you be so kind and help me? Thank you!

Right hoof:


Left hoof:


When I was mapping in real (red crayon- low visibility on the sole) it came out differently than I was mapping with the computer (red line firmly visibility).
 
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#2 ·
Couple of comments.

If the camera is not perfectly perpendicular to the hoof the measurements can be thrown off.

Can you pry up the tip of the frog or is it firmly attached?

What measurements did you use to arrive at the crayon mark?

There is a special section on ELPO for mapping club feet.

Some upright pictures might give the mapping experts more to go on, especially if one foot appears clubby.
 
#3 ·
Thank you Hondo!
If the camera is not perfectly perpendicular to the hoof the measurements can be thrown off.
Thank you for valuable attention. I did not think about it...But yes, now it is logical for me. Thank you :)
What measurements did you use to arrive at the crayon mark?
I taken the widest part of the hoof where bars are connecting with the frog.
I think that I had found true apex of the frog, I cut little frog and I had found where it combined with the sole. This horse has good concavity and it wasn't difficult.
And then I taken the distance from frog dimple to the widest part of the hoof and translated this distance from widest part of the hoof to the toe (red crayon).
There is a special section on ELPO for mapping club feet.
I didn't know...thank you!
 
#6 ·
Ha ha. I had to ask the same question a while back. Subbing is short for subscribing. When you post to the thread, you are subscribed to new post. So if you want to follow the thread but have nothing to add or say, you just post "Subbing" or "Subscribing".

How far back from the frog apex is the center of foot as measured by where the bars terminate?

And BTW, the newest information on the hinds is to use only the bars and 1" back from the apex as using the visual WPF will put it too far back due to the "V" shape of the hinds.
 
#7 ·
Ha ha. I had to ask the same question a while back. Subbing is short for subscribing. When you post to the thread, you are subscribed to new post. So if you want to follow the thread but have nothing to add or say, you just post "Subbing" or "Subscribing".
Ok hih :) Thank you for explanation :)

How far back from the frog apex is the center of foot as measured by where the bars terminate?
I mapped like "The happy hoof" from my video which I posted earlier, but this concides with bars terminate, and this is something about 2 cm from the apex, to specify exactly what I would have to make additional measurement.

And BTW, the newest information on the hinds is to use only the bars and 1" back from the apex as using the visual WPF will put it too far back due to the "V" shape of the hinds.
What "WPF" means?
I am aware that heels are stretched to the front, hmmm...but trim a little out (cut the toe) 1" from the apex that there is tip of coffin bone is little "frightening" for me...
I wonder if it will be safer initially leave little longer toe (like I drew red crayon) and then when heels withdraw back, make measurement again and cut toe shorter?
I mean to cut back this heels and toe gradually in time, not in one trim. What do you think about this?
 
#8 ·
WPF=widest part of the foot. That is at or near the pivot point of P2/P3. If you dig into ELPO deep enough, they do a large sample statistical analysis showing the deviation from the tip of P3 being 1.75" in front of the widest part of the foot and also the deviation of the widest part of the foot being at the center of rotation. But most are. And the farther away a sample lies, the fewer there are.

The conclusions drawn are that by viewing only the outside of the foot, 1" behind the true frog apex is the best measurement for the center of rotation. And that 0.75" in front of the true apex is the best measurement for the tip of P3. And that is the angular projection of P3 on the sole. As I have understood.

Inspiring tho the lady in the video was, I have no idea where or how she based her method of finding the WPF. So you're on your own there. I just follow ELPO the best I can.

X-rays are best but they have to be well marked and complete rather than being cut off as in your other thread.
 
#9 ·
Are those front hooves? When you say the horse is moving well and landing heel first, I take it they are fronts, but they are shaped more like hind hooves. Apart from the long toes, one thing that stands out for me are the heels. On the right hoof they are shorter and further back - where they should be - whereas on the left hoof they look longer and underrun (ie: the heels are run forward too far).

Since you say the right hoof is more upright (clubby?) it would be helpful to see a side view. I'm having a hard time imagining how it can be more upright with those nice short heels and long toes. Could it be that the right hoof is more correct and the left foot is more underrun and crushed forward?
 
#10 ·
Thank you both for answer!

Hondo,
WPF=widest part of the foot. That is at or near the pivot point of P2/P3. If you dig into ELPO deep enough, they do a large sample statistical analysis showing the deviation from the tip of P3 being 1.75" in front of the widest part of the foot and also the deviation of the widest part of the foot being at the center of rotation. But most are. And the farther away a sample lies, the fewer there are.

The conclusions drawn are that by viewing only the outside of the foot, 1" behind the true frog apex is the best measurement for the center of rotation. And that 0.75" in front of the true apex is the best measurement for the tip of P3. And that is the angular projection of P3 on the sole. As I have understood.
Thank you for very clear explanation. I will do mapping again and I will see if 1"+some little place for callous will cover up. Maybe right hoof so, but I think that in left will not...
I will not make x-rays in this case...this is very very costly here and like you see in my earlier post- I don't know a vet which is able to make good x-ray...(I think that I have little trauma;) )
Still I don't understand ELPO very well...I don't understand many things there and especially lenght of cenral sulcus...some time ago my horses hadn't central sulcus in back hooves, only small round holes...I never slashed central sulcus, only if I have infection, then I must. And then I cut everything what is ill.

Bondre,
You have absolutelly right! This are front hooves, right hoof is steep but more correct than left hoof. All the time when my horse's eat from the ground left leg is firmly put forward and right leg is under horse. When she stays both legs aren't perpendicular to the ground but oriented at an angle to the rear. Heels are healthy. My idea of this is that te toes are to long. When I cut toes in this horse's mother she began stay with legs perpendicular to the ground. I think that this horse (doughter) has bad center of mass by these long toes.
I will do more pictures :)
 
#11 ·
Left hoof:











Right hoof:









Here are pictures.
My idea for left hoof:
Heels little down to the live sole and cut the toe.
For right hoof:
I am not sure if should I cut heels with red or green line. If I will cut with red line then my horse will be walk on the quarters and heels will be above. This hoof is very deep, but I hadn't here much dead sole and I don't know how much concavity is this coffin bone...if this hoof is steep I belive that needs more height from the ground to the hair-line than left hoof.
And here is toe to cut and a flare needs to be removed.
Please feel free to give me some yours opinion and suggestions.
Even today I will give you new measurments about mapping.
 
#12 ·
Measurement:
Left hoof:
As I marked red crayon in my picture the point of breakover was 4 cm from the apex, the toe should be shorter for 12 mm for breakover.
New measurement for left hoof: apex is too long for 6 mm, the toe should be shorter for 27 mm and here should be breakover point.

Right hoof:
As I marked red crayon in my picture the point of breakover was 3,3 cm from the apex, the toe should be shorter for 13 mm for breakover.
New measurement for right hoof: apex is too long for 2 mm, the toe should be shorter for 21 mm and here should be breakover point.

When I made new measurement I used this new vidio of "The Happy Hoof"

In the first few minutes of movie here is presented method which tells that:
1 inch (2,54 cm) of the widest part of the foot should be true apex of the frog.
Coffin bone ends 3/4 inch (1,9 cm) from the true apex of the frog.
Breakover is 1/4 inch (0,63 cm) from the coffin bone.
Is this correct with ELPO?

Still I wonder- if cut the hoof/toe to so precise measurement is proper? I wonder if every hoof of every horse in the world is in this same proportions? I know that coffin bones are different, every bone is different- they have different shapes, different concavity and what if there is possibility if one of coffin's bone are longer than "normal"? Is this possible?
 
#13 ·
And BTW, the newest information on the hinds is to use only the bars and 1" back from the apex as using the visual WPF will put it too far back due to the "V" shape of the hinds.
This is not the same what this lady in my movie say....
Do you think that I shouldn't take into account that the frog apex is too long and take 1" from this too long apex to term where is coffin bone? For me this is much safer. Thank you Harold!
 
#14 ·
Well, this info I provided is direct from an email from ELPO. As far as the frog apex being too long, it just depends on where the true apex ends. The frog itself cannot be too long. Just the overgrown part over the sole. I'm not clear that has been determined from the use of a screwdriver. I don't really know a lot. But I do know some. I wish I were able to actually see the feet in real life I could say more. I'm just not that experienced in making determinations from pictures without depth. I wish others would join in and I could listen.

Learning to determine true live sole is fundamentally basic to all ELPO recommendations. I'm not there yet but getting closer. There just is no substitute for finding the live sole references.

The lady in the movie states that she is in a state of learning. ELPO is not in a state of learning. She is invigorating in her first video, however, ELPO should be defaulted to, IMHO.
 
#15 ·
Thank you Harold! :)
I don't know what should I do....
But the best idea for me is do everything of what I will be sure that it's safe and I will not hurt my horse.
My horse walks very well, just when she stays is not so good...but what I decided is cut the toe 1" + place for sole callus (0,6 cm) from this long apex of the frog. So my toe will be longer than I presented above.
I was thinking about this and thus acting I can't hurt my horse and I can only help. Maybe breakover will be not on perfect place but it will be better place than is now. And I will wait some time and I will be observe what is going on with these hooves and if frog apex will revoke then I will cut toe more.
I haven't choice.
And I am very grateful for your help!
Best regards!
 
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