The Horse Forum banner
Status
Not open for further replies.

Question(s) for a Farrier

5K views 22 replies 9 participants last post by  loosie 
#1 ·
Hay y'all! I've just got a question or two about shoes for my gelding. I know a bit about the actual process of shoeing but not a bit about the different kinds of shoes.

CJ tripped a bit more than he should have (see a related forum on that here: http://www.horseforum.com/jumping/how-high-can-he-go-750474/page2/) until he got new shoes this time the farrier came around. Instead of what I guess is just your standard shoes, he's got "2 degree" shoes. He looks like he's wearing shiny little platforms!

Well, the first time I rode him in his new shoes, the difference in his attitude was different even before I got on. When I went out to catch, he came right to me. While we walked back to the cross ties, his gait was very active, but not trying to get ahead of me. When I got on, his ears were straight forward. He did the best walk-canter transitions I've probably ever seen him do. My barn manager watched me ride (she had noticed that he was different after we had switched shoes) and she commented that he looked very "happy." I only jumped him on a little itty bitty crossrail the next day at the end of my ride. He was perfect, and between the two rides, he only tripped once!

Anyways I was just wondering if someone can explain to me what 2 degree shoes do, and how they do it?
 
See less See more
#6 ·
Two things

1) Why did the farrier put those shoes on

2) Those are therapeutic shoes (as said often used in navicular horses to raise the heel) the fact that he is a different horse when wearing those shoes screams VET CHECK to me. For example, if I put on my mom's glasses I'd be blind as a bat... of course when SHE puts on her glasses she can see BETTER. If therapeutic anything makes something better, especially noticeably, it's usually due to fixing a problem...which means there's a problem to fix.

I definitely had a feeling there was more going on to the tripping. I am glad he's doing so well with his stilettos (they do look cool huh?) but at the same time unfortunately the situation is just screaming that you need to check out his feet. If he didn't need the wedge he would either be the same or worse with it. Call the vet and explain the situation and find out if you don't know already why the farrier thought to put those on.. I have never heard of a farrier slapping wedges on a horse for the sake of it. That is not something to be taken lightly as it messes with not only the angles of the entire foot but the tendons as well. I would expect to take xrays at the very least. But yeah. Talk to farrier then vet.

Here's a random google pic of a wedge horse shoe for anyone unfamiliar


Oh and an aside of a 3... is this your horse or do you lease? Especially if you own him I would not be happy about the farrier not only seeing a reason to change his shoes but to then change them so dramatically without telling you. Not cool.
 
#14 ·
What's in the picture isn't what CJ's got on now...
this is. I hope it's not serious... I'll try to get pictures of his feet sometime soon.
Update Colby? Have you found out if/what is wrong with your horse, that the farrier decided to use wedges? If you'd like to post hoof pics for opinions, see the link in my signature below for what's required.
 
#10 ·
^What she said. Yeah, it's a wedge shoe, albeit mild, at 2 degree. OP, the one Yogi pictured is side-on, to show the difference in height between toe & heel, and it's a higher degree/heel. Many farriers use pads to 'build up' rather than just keg rim shoes made like that.

Farriers have long found that this can be an effective *palliative* for problems such as 'navicular' which was until relatively recently, little understood & thought incurable. As a palliative, it certainly has it's place, but it doesn't address the problem, which if left to get worse, will cause the palliative to be short lived. Eg. 'incurable navicular' was often first 'treated' with bar shoes &/or pads, then when that no longer worked, you'd go to a slight wedge, then make it bigger when that quit working.... eventually, neurectomy may be the only effective measure left.

Always best to treat the problem and try to rehab the horse first, and save palliative only measures as a 'last resort' for truly incurable or too old beasties IMO.
 
#12 ·
Amen to this! While wedge shoes can temporarily help with navicular pain, they actually accelerate the disease process itself, and if that caudal heel pain is still at the soft tissue phase, prevent the actual re habilatitive measures possible,, by correcting hoof pathology causing navicular syndrome, and thus prevent progression to true l navicular disease
 
#11 ·
PS. Check out the thread links in my signature. One's to show what pic angles you need for hoof critiques, if you want to post for that. And emphasising the 'what she said' includes 'questions for the vet' as well as farrier. I'd want xrays & to know exactly what & why is going on.
 
#13 ·
Wedge shoes are only a temporary fix, a band aid and the problem will get worse. Unfortunately, a lot of vets can't help you, unless they know a thing or two about balancing a hoof, otherwise, you might be screwed.
 
#17 ·
Hey guys, sorry about the delay... It's the first week of AP's and it's been kinda hectic. I know his hooves are dry, I'm putting hoof oil on him as often as I can. Once AP's are over I'll be able to do it more often, not that that's an excuse. His health should be my top priority. Anyways, from what I can see they look contracted and underrun (maybe??) I honestly don't have much of an eye for these things, I'm too new to the horse world. Is there anything you would recommend? The hooves w no shoes are his back hooves.














Again, sorry I don't really know what I'm doing... I tried to follow the hoof pictures guide as best as I could. I hope this helps so that I can take steps towards helping CJ. Thanks so much you guys.
 
#18 ·
Firstly, you have done pretty well with pics - even knowing what is needed & being experienced, I know it's often hard to get good ones. Of the feet on the ground, you need to take them more squarely from the side & front, and from at/near ground level, as angled like that gives a skewed view. But they're good enough to get/give a reasonable idea I think.

First comments on what you have written, then on what I see...

I know his hooves are dry, I'm putting hoof oil on him as often as I can.
Of course, as with everything, don't just take my word for it, but look into the subject thoroughly yourself...

Hooves are MEANT to be dry on the outside! Assuming they're healthy, the outer layer is impervious anyway, it doesn't absorb any moisture, but keeps what's inside, inside. And oil is not 'moisture' as such anyway, like water. When there are breaks - cracks, chips etc - extra moisture can get in, as can fungal & bacterial infections, and to keep it moist, or seal it in with oil, blocking oxygen & it's ability to dry out, tends only to make for a better environment for the bugs to thrive, and make horn soft & weak, more prone to further infection too. Therefore I'd strongly suggest you ditch the hoof oil, and instead encourage the feet to become dry.

If hooves appear to look 'too dry', shelly, flakey, etc, then the likelihood is that nutrition is a big factor, and that too *wet* environment may also be. I don't see anything here anyway that give any appearance of 'too dry' - quite the opposite actually - but with 'micro cracks' as can be seen here, that is very often nutritional too.

Anyways, from what I can see they look contracted and underrun (maybe??)
Absolutely! As a 'new to the horse world' person, you have obviously learned & observed more than many much more experienced! It's a big subject, not to mention there is so much else that's important for you to learn, so don't ever feel bad for not knowing better - just strive to keep learning!

Now, firstly another 'disclaimer' about not taking my word for anything blindly. Not least because even the best pics & a little info on a forum cannot give a full & completely accurate picture. Therefore, take my comments as 'food for thought' and the illustrations only as a *rough* idea.

And BTW, I'm well aware, that with eyes accustomed to evaluating in order to rehab, that I can often paint a too scary picture, by picking every fault:eek_color:, especially if you know little. But I keep doing this, because I want people to recognise & understand/consider all the factors that I am mentioning. It doesn't mean your horse's feet are going to fall off! ;-) They actually don't look that bad in most respects, FYI. So, having said that, lets get down to nitty gritty...

In the first & 3rd pic, you can see heels are 'run forward', as are toes stretched forward. I have drawn on the 3rd pics to further illustrate; red lines = problems, green lines indicate *approx* where the hoof 'should' be. As you can see in the red lines following the toe wall, the lower ones deviate from the hoof - that's to show how much further forward they would be, but that the farrier has removed some of the flare from the outside - that's not in the least necessarily wrong, just pointing it out.

It's good to see the farrier has obviously recognised the toes are stretched and applied 'Natural Balance' type shoes set back and with a bevelled 'breakover', which may well put the toe/breakover at a good spot. Please study Home to get a better idea of the whys & wherefores of that.

I've also noted the hairline on the left fore at least, looks a bit... dippy(I did exaggerate the line a bit to make obvious). Indicating already a bit too steep an angle & extra pressure on the toe walls & hence hairline. Adding to that, you will see by the green heel lines, I've marked the left fore heels as already 'too high'.

**He may 'need' to be be higher in that foot though - horses, like us, are often not completely symmetrical, and there is often body imbalance that means to 'correct' the foot to 'ideal' heel height may cause body issues/discomfort to worsen. So... I would want a hoofcare practitioner AND a good bodyworker working together to ascertain whether/how much it should be 'corrected'. Or not. Look up 'high-low syndrome' or 'clubbed foot' to learn more. The Barefoot Blacksmith ? Healthy hooves for life-long soundness have some good info on that, on their articles page.

The sort of 'ledgy' or 'ski jump' look to just above the hairline of the left fore is a *possible* indication that the hoof wall has been pushed up higher in relation to the bony column(or conversely thought of as the bones 'sinking' within the capsule). **IF this is the case, it doesn't look terrible & is actually a very common issue, especially for horses shod with peripheral rims. May want for extra support under the front of the foot(sole, NOT walls) too.

Unfortunately, applying rim shoes, especially inflexible, especially without appropriate support *under the frog* is contraindicative to fixing/improving run forward or weak heels. Not only does the foot need to be trimmed well & in such a way to minimise excess pressure on the already crushed heel walls, but the frog & what is above it needs *comfortable* stimulation & support. I'd be therefore using 'frog support wedges', under the frogs, NOT under the walls, and holding them in/on with either hoof boots, or flexible shoes which also protect and support the heels, frog, soles, such as Easyshoes or Eponas or such. *Given the wall breakage & likely infection needing to be cleaned out at the quarters though, I'd be inclined to boot rather than shoe, at least until that's all good tho.

Hind feet - as per info on lamenessprevention.org, blue lines indicate *approximate hoof balance & where 'breakover' should be. Tho that's VERY rough, without considering all relevant points, being from that pic only. Seems toes are also a tad stretched from this. Looks like heels, while a bit run forward, may well be too low in the hinds - I find the lack of definition of bars & lumpy look to soles just in front of bars also goes along with that. It is unclear at all, from that pic, just how deep the toe is in relation to the heel though. Pink on toe sole is bruising tho, and as heels, while not so contracted, are weak, I would want to protect/support those feet too.
 

Attachments

#19 ·
@loosie Thank you so much! It's really nice to finally have some kind of ballpark idea for what's going on... I never thought of the hoof oil that way! Thanks for the extra info.

I'm DEFINITELY going to go out next time the farrier comes around so that I can ask him what's up. He's a very nice guy, so I don't think he'll mind me bugging him and asking him some questions. He wants to teach as much as I want to learn (which is a lot). I'm planning to major in equestrian studies at college, so I'm glad that I'm at least fairly good at looking at hooves.

Should I maybe stick to light dressage for now, or maybe just walk/trot?

I don't want to try to suggest anything to my farrier when I know very little myself, but I'm going to suggest that we make a plan for CJ. I don't want to just tell him in 4 weeks that CJ seems sore, only to have him raise him to higher wedges. Now, I don't think he's the type to do that, but I'm starting to realize that I need to be more in control of CJ's wellbeing. Others might know more than me, but there's no doubt in my mind that no one cares more than me.

Thank you so much for the quick response, I look forward to making CJ feel better!
 
#20 ·
I'm DEFINITELY going to go out next time the farrier comes around so that I can ask him what's up. He's a very nice guy, so I don't think he'll mind me bugging him and asking him some questions. He wants to teach as much as I want to learn
Why wait, why not call & ask him now, so you can make a 'game plan' for next visit? That's great if he's keen to teach you what he knows. It's a start for you anyway, even if his knowledge may be lacking.

Should I maybe stick to light dressage for now, or maybe just walk/trot?
I personally would avoid anything high impact, or on hard ground at least. I would avoid working much/hard on hard/flat surfaces regardless, if the horse was shod just in steel rims. But I can't know whether your horse has some problem that means he shouldn't do any of that even if not shod this way(assuming adequate protection/support).

We can all only do the best we can with the knowledge we have at the time, so it's great you're learning more, and to be informed & proactive on a subject that many horse owners(albeit because they don't know better) leave blindly to some 'expert'.
 
#22 ·
Hay y'all! I've just got a question or two about shoes for my gelding. I know a bit about the actual process of shoeing but not a bit about the different kinds of shoes.

CJ tripped a bit more than he should have (see a related forum on that here: until he got new shoes this time the farrier came around. Instead of what I guess is just your standard shoes, he's got "2 degree" shoes. He looks like he's wearing shiny little platforms!

Anyways I was just wondering if someone can explain to me what 2 degree shoes do, and how they do it?
Personally, I would find a new farrier.

He put on a 2 degree wedge shoe with no frog support under it, and did not balance the hoof properly. If you do need to do some sort of wedge for your horse, whether it is a wedge pad or a wedge shoe, you MUST support the frog and underlying structures.

I also do not think it is smart to just slap a wedge shoe in a horse without figuring out what is wrong first. (your farrier should know better)

How long ago was he shoed?


CJ tripped a bit more than he should have
Sounds like your horse has heel pain. If the heel hurts, the horse will often land toe-first to avoid pain. This makes them more prone to tripping than if they correctly land heel-first (or if they'd at least land flat-footed).

I think it would in your horse's best interest to take him to a lameness vet and do a full lameness evaluation. (Not just your usual vet ... take him to someone used to diagnosing lameness cases.) It would also be worthwhile to do x-rays to see if there are any bony changes.

Yes, wedge pads and/or shoes can be one way to manage heel pain because you are taking some of the weight off the heel. But keep in mind, you are just distributing it elsewhere.

Amen to this! While wedge shoes can temporarily help with navicular pain, they actually accelerate the disease process itself, and if that caudal heel pain is still at the soft tissue phase, prevent the actual re habilatitive measures possible,, by correcting hoof pathology causing navicular syndrome, and thus prevent progression to true l navicular disease
Wedge shoes are only a temporary fix, a band aid and the problem will get worse. Unfortunately, a lot of vets can't help you, unless they know a thing or two about balancing a hoof, otherwise, you might be screwed.
While I agree 100% with smilie and waresbear that the foot NEEDS to be balanced .... sometimes the feet are perfect and the horse still has heel pain. But your horse, OP, certainly has some things that can be fixed about the hoof balance.
 
#23 ·
He put on a 2 degree wedge shoe with no frog support under it, and did not balance the hoof properly. If you do need to do some sort of wedge for your horse, whether it is a wedge pad or a wedge shoe, you MUST support the frog and underlying structures.

I also do not think it is smart to just slap a wedge shoe in a horse without figuring out what is wrong first. (your farrier should know better)
Just want to emphasise this bit again, because after my post following the pics, it seems you didn't quite get the importance of that Colby, or the importance of having diagnostics done, rather than just speaking to the (same) farrier about it.

Unfortunately while farriers can be really nice guys & approachable, and honestly believe they're doing the best for the horse, they DON'T always 'know better' & unfortunately, it's been shown, time & again, that truly good, knowledgeable farriers are rare as hens teeth, while those who lack in knowledge, ability, etc, are a dime a dozen.

I also meant to say in the reply after, to your; " I don't want to just tell him in 4 weeks that CJ seems sore, only to have him raise him to higher wedges. Now, I don't think he's the type to do that,.." What makes you assume that, when he's already done just that by putting wedges on without diagnostics, without telling you anything already??
 
Status
Not open for further replies.
You have insufficient privileges to reply here.
Top