Removing toe callus when trimming - Page 2 - The Horse Forum
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post #11 of 54 Old 07-17-2013, 09:32 PM
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Ditto no shoes - the horse is better off with frequent trims and putting boots/part pads on for a time, if need be.

I am really thankful my vet also leans heavily toward alternative methods, so he was completely on board with keeping my foundered horse barefoot.

My problem is that I am no longer physically able to trim and finding someone that would listen almost got my horse 8 feet under.

I can barely stay bent over long enough to do raspings in-between the 4 week professional trims, but I manage.

What amazes me, is how sound my horse walks and he hasn't de-rotated very much.

The vet was ecstatic anyway His comment was "--the soles are nice and thick, his frogs are in excellent condition and his heels have spread a little further than they were. The horse can be saved a lot easier when those three things are in good health".

He said with the severity of rotation my horse had, he's not surprised there hasn't much de-rotation but he's also happy with the overall health of the horn.

I've posted this video before but here it is again. This was taken the end of January, 2013. His legs are wrapped because the second rehab farrier cut his heels too short in one strike and there's ultrasounds to show both front legs ended up with torn ligaments. It's safe to say this horse has been to farrier h**l and back.

My point to this video is that new x-rays were taken in early June that show his hooves have barely de-rotated from the 8 - 9 degrees (dorsal wall measuring) when he initially foundered.

It's a jaw dropper because he's easily moving down our gravel drive totally barefoot; no pads, not anything on those handsome little wiggies of his. You'd never know to look at this video that he is recovering from severe founder and hasn't de-rotated

He's a Tennessee Walker so that head bobbing you see is exactly what you're supposed to see

I still have not gotten over the new x-rays showing barely an inth of coffin bone improvement. I may never get over it - I've only now gotten to where I can talk about it and be fairly rational
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post #12 of 54 Old 07-22-2013, 10:33 PM Thread Starter
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I still have not managed hoof photos in good light, unfortunately, but it's kind of a moot point. We saw the vet today. The radiographs were not good. We still have 15+ degrees of rotation and some damage to the tip of the coffin bone. I was actually unaware that she had been so bad off to begin with, or I likely would have had her euthanized. I never saw the original radiographs because I was on the other side of the country and she still belonged to my mother. The vet was amazed that she is (mostly) sound and that she generally looks very healthy and doesn't seem to be in much pain, so he thinks she will pull through. He sent her x-rays to a specialist, and we're waiting to see what she thinks. He really wants to put a rocker type shoe on, and I'm not sure what to say. I really don't want to shoe, but she's internally in much, much worse shape than I thought she was, and despite taking her heels really short, I have not managed to de-rotate her much at all. (While I do not know what her original rads looked like, she never penetrated the sole. She's only 5mm from penetrating right now.) This is pretty upsetting since she was sound enough to trot over gravel earlier this spring.

I also had a thyroid panel done, and I will hopefully hear back from a lab in a few days. We're going to also make her dry lot smaller to make sure she isn't finding anything green in there. I'm not really sure what else we can do for her. I'm beginning to think this horse is just hopeless.

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post #13 of 54 Old 07-22-2013, 10:45 PM
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Wow I hope things work out for your mare. Sounds bad but maybe there is something that can be done to help her. Keep us updated and best wishs for your mare.
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post #14 of 54 Old 07-22-2013, 11:25 PM Thread Starter
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Thanks. I'm hoping the specialist thinks of something. I was just hoping to have the vet help me clear up the little flare ups because she is sound most of time now. I was really not expecting her feet to be so bad. I honestly had no idea. I feel terrible because I have been doing light riding with her, but she never seemed uncomfortable. I would not have done it if she didn't seem to be having a good time. :( I also really thought she was finally getting well.

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post #15 of 54 Old 07-23-2013, 11:38 AM
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don't hold it against yourself for something you didn't know (like riding when you were under the impression that it wasn't a bad thing). you're doing what you can for your mare and that's the best anyone can ask for. i'm sure your mare appreciates it.
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post #16 of 54 Old 07-23-2013, 12:27 PM
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I'd personally still like to see the pics if you can get them. And if you have radiographs those would be great to see too. There are many experienced trimmers on here, maybe someone will have something to add.
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post #17 of 54 Old 07-23-2013, 10:49 PM
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I am not a big fan of traditional methods treating founder except in certain cases. I find they dont always help but often harm and end in euthanasia. It depends. The biggies are to make SURE the heel is getting trimmed down and back and the lamellar wedge on the toe is being aggressively taken back with a strong bevel. If the horse is shod, the farrier CANNOT be shoeing the toe flare. They have to shoe the bone and the new hoof form the horse is growing or needs to grow. They should take no sole from under the coffin bone tip. At all. I find most traditional type farriers cant see this. they also need to support the bony column and use pour in padding or something for the back half of the foot. with shoes, when abscesses happen, you cant get to them as easily either. Its not a good combo IMO. there are better methods that csan be taken on and off easily without damage. Id opt for casting. Its almost instant comfort for many horses, cheap if you buy it by the case and easy enough an owner can apply it.

Of course you have to remove the cause of the laminates also or all is for naught. Casting is a much better solution than nailed on shoes IME. I hate rocker shoes. They can cause alot of body soreness since the horse just cant stand on a flat foot but has to brace his leg with his body. No like.

Look into casting and do some research. Dont just do what they tell you. Be informed. Get the X rays and know where your horse is at. There are many methods out there now that trump old school methods and heal faster and better.
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Last edited by Trinity3205; 07-23-2013 at 10:57 PM.
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post #18 of 54 Old 07-24-2013, 01:52 AM Thread Starter
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I have x-rays now. I have been trying to avoid conventional methods and was doing a barefoot trim, which I was having a barefoot trimmer check. However, she has at least 15 degrees of rotation still, so I got a butt chewing from the vet. He is adamant that we shoe her, and obviously barefoot trimming is not working. She is not lame though, so the X-Rays were really a surprise. I took her in because she still has occasional flare ups, about twice a year, and she's on a dry lot on low NSC hay and is being exercised, so I don't know what to do. Her internal hoof structure is awful though. There's damage to the tip of the coffin bone from the reverse shoes she was in from her original episode. There's a huge amount of rotation, and her sole is not thick enough. If I had not watched them take them I would have sworn they were from the wrong horse. She was trotting on gravel barefoot a few months ago, then she developed a pulse and heat one morning. I gave her Bute, the inflammation seemed to be gone the next day, but she has been ouchie on gravel since. She's fine on concrete, soft footing, dirt, etc, barefoot, and gravel is no problem in easyboots. I don't really think she's in pain. She is nice and relaxed with ears forward, good headset, and a little foam at the mouth during our dressage lesson, none of which point to working through pain. She never seems more stiff after a ride or lesson. Obviously, I will not be riding her again until she X-Rays better. It was never my intention to hurt her. Anyway, this is rambling because I am confused and upset.

When we talked shoes, the vet wanted a rocker, but I said I didn't want to shoe at all, but I might consider a glue on made of flexible material, like the Epona shoe. I'm waiting to hear from a laminitis specialist too. I am going to have to find some farrier though because I really feel unqualified to deal with the mess inside her feet. :(

She's in her boots and pads right now, so long as she doesn't tear a gaiter. She does not really need them for comfort, but the vet was concerned about her sole. He even wanted her on stall rest, but I only have a run in shed and dry lot, so all I could even do would be use electric to make the lot smaller.

I will update when I hear from the specialist and get her thyroid panel back. I'm hoping specialist has some ideas.

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post #19 of 54 Old 07-24-2013, 02:24 AM
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Pictures please. X-rays also.
I know from experience how much distortion and false information an incorrectly taken X-ray can give.
To help you we need at least as much info as your vet has, ya know...
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post #20 of 54 Old 07-24-2013, 12:39 PM Thread Starter
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I know her heels look tall, but I'm about trimmed to the sole on the the bottom and Bettina (barefoot trimmer) said not take them a lot shorter last time she looked at them. The one heel is still growing faster than the other, too, and I did not correct it for the pictures. If there are suggestions for ways to get them shorter (gradually), I would love to hear them. Having seen the x-rays, I think those heels have to come down a lot more some how.

It might be hard to say from the pics, but her sole isn't flat, and it is not bulging. She's bearing some weight on the toe callous in front because I rolled the wall away to relieve pressure on it. The vet and my trainer both want me to trim this off and let the wall grow back down. The callous is forward of the tip of the coffin bone-- we talked about that at the clinic.

I have no digital copies of the x-rays, so I included my attempt to scan them.

I also want to stress that we are NOT in the acute phase of laminitis. This horse can w/t/c comfortably. She shows no distress making turns. She just a little sore on gravel, but it's at about the same level of my QH who is still transitioning to barefoot. It is only notable because she was much more sound on gravel a few months ago. That is part of what is so confusing to me about the whole thing. I do acknowledge that she could be in more pain that she's showing and I put her in her boots and am not riding her at the vet's request.

Also, a baby picture of her because the x-ray is very depressing:

Tug on anything at all and you'll find it connected to everything else in the universe.~John Muir
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