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Spot the Nail! (my mare hates farriers)

This is a discussion on Spot the Nail! (my mare hates farriers) within the Hoof Care forums, part of the Horse Health category
  • DID GRAND CIRCUIT T SHOES HELP YOUR RINGBONE HORSE
  • Treatment of infammation of the fetlock

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    11-12-2013, 10:58 AM
  #21
Green Broke
Oof, those pictures made me grimace. Those honestly look like laminitic feet to me. Her posture in the first picture of your third set of photos looks laminitic, though it could be because she's standing on a slope.

She has a very long toe and very high heels. That long toe is ripping the laminae away from her hoof wall. There is very little lamellar attachment on the new hoof growth and if the toe is not backed up ASAP, that will be taken away as well. There is about half an inch of toe you can take off right now from these pictures. I would back and bevel the toe before I did anything, then take the heels down to sole level. She's got contracted heels and her frog needs to make contact with the ground to strengthen up. I'd be treating her for thrush, also. Her hind feet are a bit long as well as far as I can tell.

I'd also start rasping on that baby's feet.
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    11-12-2013, 10:58 AM
  #22
Green Broke
Agree w/ ALL above. Although I'm not a fan I think after the shoes are off you could use some easy boots to help cushion bc she will be sore for awhile.
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    11-12-2013, 11:32 AM
  #23
Banned
I would be getting her Easyboots RXs with gel pads to put inside of boots. Wow those are some long toes that need some backing up.Plus all the other issues.
     
    11-12-2013, 02:18 PM
  #24
Foal
Kayella - she isn't standing in a slope in the whole-body photo, it's an effect of the perspective. That is a typical posture. But wouldn't she have inflammation in the hooves if she was laminitic?
I know her heels want taking down, but they're virtually at sole level now. Or can I take the sole down in the heels too, between the bars and the hoof wall? I trimmed her regularly from July to October (until the unfortunate shod episode) and I kept her feet short with the toe rolled, but not bevelled, but I'm frankly at a loss about how to get her heels shorter. I know the frog should be on the ground - I've had her with infill pads to give more contact. The tiny frogs were the first thing that struck me about her feet.
What should I do to the mulelet's feet? Rasp all round to keep them short and the sole on the ground?
One last question See how the hoof wall slopes inwards at her heels on the right (superlame) foot? Why is that? Is it a sign that the heels are opening? Or just the opposite?
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    11-12-2013, 06:19 PM
  #25
Trained
*Firstly let me say I managed to miss the bit about it having been 3 weeks since those shoes before she became lame, until I read Patty's post. Therefore I wouldn't be quite so upset with the farrier. Tho with possible distortion because of camera angle considered, I still think it's obvious in the first pic it's a bad job.

I am interested to know what exactly the vet did/said, as it sounds like you were saying you didn't know why the horse was lame & were getting xrays to try to find out, implying maybe that the vet didn't have much of a clue?? Can you post the rads?? To be able to compare them with the photos will help us to be more accurate in suggesting the specifics of trimming.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Bondre    
That is a typical posture. But wouldn't she have inflammation in the hooves if she was laminitic?
Laminitis means inflammation, but 'low grade' laminitis can be mild enough that it's not obvious, and chronic, long term problems with mechanical deformation(aka 'founder') doesn't necessarily mean inflammation is current & continual. So absence of a bounding pulse or great heat doesn't mean the horse hasn't been laminitic or isn't 'foundered'.

Quote:
I know her heels want taking down, but they're virtually at sole level now. Or can I take the sole down in the heels too, between the bars and the hoof wall? I trimmed her regularly from July to October (until the unfortunate shod episode) and I kept her feet short with the toe rolled, but not bevelled,
'Rolled' & 'bevelled' mean the same thing, although 'mustang roll' does tend to just mean the outer wall of healthy feet. It needs to be done a ****load more on those hooves.

Respectfully, you need to learn a lot more about hoof function & form, as I'm sure you do already realise. Hooves like this are also a lot trickier than just a maintenance trim on healthy hooves. I would keep striving (I know, difficult, maybe impossible...) to find a good hoof care practitioner/farrier experienced in *successful* rehab to help her, even if that means travelling, if at all possible. Study Equine Lameness Prevention Organization for some good guidelines on where/how to 'back up' those feet.

Re heels, I'd be mostly concentrating on toes to start with, and you may find with that the heels change a bit & become easier to 'read' on their own. For now I'd probably just 'bevel' them so that the ground surface is on the right angle, according to what your rads show of P3. Can't tell much from those pics, but it does appear likely there is a bit of dead sole in the heel corners of the left fore, definitely a fair bit in the right fore. ***Looks like that one 'needs' to be a tad higher heeled too though & I'd also want a bodyworker to check out the horse before considering changing that. Live sole is the limit of where you should trim to - if that far - on the ground surface, but dead sole can be removed, at least to give you a better idea of how far you can/should go.

Quote:
What should I do to the mulelet's feet? Rasp all round to keep them short and the sole on the ground?
Keeping walls close to sole level all round is the general rule, but again, find a professional if at all possible and do more study, as you want to set him up for a long, sound life & it's easy to get it wrong, if you don't at very least, understand the principles. *Also remember babies have soft, easily damaged bones & joints, so no over flexing, fighting or forcing it - I'd first concentrate on his behaviour & desensitising him to it all before worrying too much about the job.

Quote:
One last question See how the hoof wall slopes inwards at her heels on the right (superlame) foot?
That's just the more contracted one. That's the foot that she habitually has back(or had, when she could load her toes), with the left one forward, so less load on her right heels have allowed them to grow higher & be weaker.

Now for the pics. I've drawn on a few of them. **Firstly the disclaimer that this is just to give you a rough idea, because working from only a few photos isn't good enough for accuracy, pics may give false ideas, etc. Not to mention, others may have different ideas, so it's important to understand the principles governing different approaches, to better decide the pros & cons of different opinions.

So... Green lines show approximately the dorsal angle of P3 - you will be able to be more accurate as you have the rads. This is the angle the dorsal wall should be, if it were well attached. You can see the very top of the hoof wall is at or close to this angle. Blue lines show approximately where/how I'd back up/bevel the walls. Also notice the 'heel bevel' - look at your xrays too, with vets help, to work out the distal(ground) surface of P3 & make ground surface of heels approx 3-5 degrees from ground parallel.

On the sole pics, the red lines give you an idea of balance, so how far back the toes should come - e-hoofcare will give you the why's & wherefores of those proportions. I would put a very strong bevel on the walls from at or close to the blue crescent, without rasping anything off the ground surface, in the front half of the feet at least. The RF sole pic shows that, even if it is deemed the heels of that hoof should stay that high, the quarters, between those lines should still be tapered down from the heels to near/at sole level.
Attached Images
File Type: jpg Front Left - lateral.jpg (34.5 KB, 147 views)
File Type: jpg Front Right - medial.jpg (82.1 KB, 140 views)
File Type: jpg Front Left - solar.jpg (43.8 KB, 144 views)
File Type: jpg Front Right - solar.jpg (44.3 KB, 142 views)
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    11-13-2013, 01:02 AM
  #26
Foal
That's given me plenty to work on, Loosie, many thanks.
I haven't got the rads yet or spoken to the vet again, but he should be coming today. When he examined her, if he had a good idea of why she's lame, he wasn't letting on. He seemed to be inclining for low ringbone, didn't much hold with the idea of navicular pain and didn't mention laminitis. He did hoof testers in both feet with a painful reaction in the frog region, then nerve blocks in the RF. With the first block just below the fetlock she was pretty much equally lame in both forefeet , then with the second block above the fetlock she was sound on that side and lame in the LF.
Hope to get the rads up later today.
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    11-13-2013, 07:16 AM
  #27
Weanling
Subbing to see how you go. Poor girl looks very uncomfortable, good on you for working to improve things!
     
    11-14-2013, 05:15 PM
  #28
Weanling
I am betting she has ring bone.
     
    11-15-2013, 05:38 AM
  #29
Foal
Right on, Patty! - and that's without even seeing her in the flesh. (How did you know?). I wish my vet was half as expert.

The xrays show there is a (minute) bony growth on the front side of the coffin bone at the P2P3 articulation in the RF. The vet says this is the very beginning of ringbone. Unfortunately he insisted on keeping the xray films for another few days, so I can't post them here yet for comments (sigh).

My question now is whether the ringbone is the ONLY cause of her lameness, or whether there are further, non-bony issues too. (Apart from her loong toes, which I have trimmed, and will post pics later on today for feedback). There is that swelling between her heel bulbs (visible in photos) - it appeared gradually three months back, without any inflammation, and doesn't reduce even when she's been on bute. This makes me think of a circulatory problem, maybe caused by her toe-first landing and lack of frog contact. Any ideas?

The vet had nothing inspired to say about the possible cause of the swelling. His treatment plan is limited to intra-articular injections of steroids or HA for treating the ringbone. Not a word about hoof care, corrective shoeing or joint supplements. I'm sure people on the forum can do way better. I might go with his injections, but only as part of a more holistic approach with emphasis on hoof balance. Has anyone here tried homeopathy for treating ringbone?

Please comment freely, I'm learning loads from all your input and am most appreciative of everyone's time.
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    11-15-2013, 10:58 AM
  #30
Weanling
Quote:
Right on, Patty! - and that's without even seeing her in the flesh. (How did you know?). I wish my vet was half as expert.
thank you. The lump around the affected area (at the lower end of the short pastern bone) is clearly visible to the naked eyes at the coronary band. I kinda can't believe your vet didn't mention it.

so....anyway...do NOT arbritrarily try to lower those heels!
Ringbone is a case where the normal healthy hoof parameters sometimes have to be thrown out the window for the horse has to find the best place to form the foot in order to get comfort in the affected joint. It may mean an ugly foot but a happier horse.

So, Sometimes they need a taller heel , sometimes a lower one, sometimes eve a longer toe. Each case is different because the little extra bone growth in the joint is in a little different spot in each case.

They DO mostly all like a foot that can roll easily in any direction, to minimize the movement in the joint. There are shoes designed to assist this , more than barefoot can do (Google Stewart Clogs, aluminum PLR shoes. Handmade Ringbone shoes, Morrison rollers . Grand Circuit""T"shoes)

But in the case where maybe a farrier is not experienced in applying these kinds of alternative shoeing therapies, barefoot and rolling the hoof well all around its edge may be enough.

These toes are extremely distorted though and should be taken back to remove the flares and rolled on the bottom to ease breakover.
A little experimenting with' leverage testing' can help the knowledgeable vet and farrier determine what angle to set the foot (Krosscheck Leverage Testing Device)


.Anyway good luck with it. Ringbone can be extremely hard to manage because you are working with what amounts to a sharp object (a bone spur) invading inside a joint surface and a joint has to move as the horse moves so it hurts. .The actual size of the ringbone as sen on Xrays often does not correspond with the amount of lameness. They may do well for a while then take one bad step and "tweak" the affected joint and go seriously lame overnight. Then they eventually get a little better, but then do it again . Its a roller coaster with ring bone so don't get too frustrated with your vet and farrier if they can't fix it as well as we would all like .
     

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