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Starting off right?

This is a discussion on Starting off right? within the Hoof Care forums, part of the Horse Health category

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        01-25-2014, 01:14 PM
      #11
    Yearling
    When shod correctly the frog DOES get engagement to the ground, particularly if the owner quits cleaning out the packed in dirt (nature's frog support material). And there are ways to insure the frog is getting good support in a shod foot even if there is no dirt to pack into the foot.
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        01-27-2014, 12:13 AM
      #12
    Started
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by Patty Stiller    
    When shod correctly the frog DOES get engagement to the ground, particularly if the owner quits cleaning out the packed in dirt (nature's frog support material). And there are ways to insure the frog is getting good support in a shod foot even if there is no dirt to pack into the foot.
    See, it's the 'correctly' bit that's the kicker. Unfortunately for my and my boy, the one farrier I know of that fits the bill is a few states away from me. The shrinkage of his frog and his heels contracting have happened in the six months since we moved away.

    Cleaned and looked at his feet again today, as if I am magically expecting his frogs to grow overnight! I know it will take a while (any ideas on how long?). He is growing hoof wall though, very interesting to me to see where it is growing and wearing. The roll or bevel on his toes has nearly half grown down already, the white line and unpigmented wall are both ground level again (had beveled it back to sole edge due to flare), only the outer wall still has a bevel. There aren't any gaps or dirt lines in it now though, just a smooth worn edge that I have to look to see the transitions of the layers.

    Beginning to look into boots, but not sure what the most effective long term plan is for hoof protection? Do you think his feet will change sizes very much over time? He's not landing heel first right now, especially on the hard frozen ground we've had lately, which makes me feel bad that he's uncomfortable. Then I get to wondering if I should just put his shoes back on, but that's what has us here in the first place- shoes done in a manner that doesn't work well for him.

    Could someone explain what a negative palmar/plantar angle means for trimming, shoeing, and soundness? His rear feet have on again/off again been borderline for that appearance and Loosie, you aren't the first to notice it. I've never gotten any more explanation than that it's when the coffin bone angle with the ground is reversed and that it's a bad thing.
         
        01-27-2014, 02:08 AM
      #13
    Trained
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by Sharpie    
    See, it's the 'correctly' bit that's the kicker. Unfortunately for my and my boy, the one farrier I know of that fits the bill is a few states away from me.
    Kicker for so many of us & the reason many got into trimming their own... & then some. I agree with Patty mostly, that it's about the trim & how the horse is shod that's the huge issue, not as much whether they're shod at all, but I reckon if you can't get a good farrier, it's another reason the horse is probably better unshod - better than a bad trim AND locked into shoes for 6 weeks.

    Quote:
    Beginning to look into boots, but not sure what the most effective long term plan is for hoof protection? Do you think his feet will change sizes very much over time? He's not landing heel first right now,
    Boots with pads so he can *comfortably* use his heels, perhaps extra frog support if they are receded, would be my choice. But yes, they may change size as flares, etc grow out, so maybe give it another trim cycle or 2 before ordering, if you can't get them second hand or such. The new Easycare Transition boots are meant to be quite adjustable & suit changing hooves, but can't speak from personal experience there.

    Quote:
    Could someone explain what a negative palmar/plantar angle means for trimming, shoeing, and soundness? His rear feet have on again/off again been borderline for that appearance and Loosie, you aren't the first to notice it. I've never gotten any more explanation than that it's when the coffin bone angle with the ground is reversed and that it's a bad thing.
    There's another 'kicker'. Because being ridden in boots with extra frog support can really help IME, if the horse isn't in those boots much & the home environment isn't comfortable & supportive to his heels, it may be too little help. I do think this sort of approach - wearing padded boots part time & areas of pea gravel or such at home is best, but in the 'real world' that may not always be possible, in which case GOOD shoeing with GOOD frog support for 24/7 stimulation may be best.
         
        02-01-2014, 03:45 PM
      #14
    Started
    I looked at his feet last night, actually brushed them off with the stiff brush to see what was doing and I'm pleased. I've been sick and the ground has been frozen solid, rock-hard and uneven, so a bit tough on him and we've both been moving slow this week. That said, I can breathe again, it thawed out and he trotted up to come in for dinner, so life is good.

    The central sulcus in both front feet already is changing shape. Rather than being a V with moisture in the depth, it's widened out into a bit of a you and is both dry and no longer packing with manure. It's certainly not a 'thumbprint,' but given it's been only a couple of weeks, I'm surprised to see differences already. The frogs also look fuller in the fronts about halfway between the apex and the rear edges. Not sure what that means, but so long as he's comfortable, I figure it's probably okay.

    His right rear is growing a bit differently from the others. They're all wearing hoof wall, white line and the edges of the sole evenly/level as the weight bearing surface. On his right rear, the junction of the white line and the unpigmented sole is the most distal surface, and then the sole and outer wall slope to a mm or two shorter, moreso as you go towards the frog. Just my observation, not sure yet if it has meaning. Given my experience as n=4 hooves, "same" and "different" is what I've got.

    On that note, I remember when I had my favorite farrier, Jayne's bars were always a contact surface with the ground, and in the past months, they've dissappeared, first in the rears and then the fronts. I wonder if they will grow longer again? I know they were not being trimmed away.

    The nail holes from him previous shoeing are nearly gone already, only a couple left at the bottom edges. That seems really fast? Anyhow, I will be measuring for boots and taking pictures to share in the next day or two. Hopefully we'll even be feeling up to a ride if the weather stays mild.
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        02-02-2014, 12:19 AM
      #15
    Started
    Can't edit and add to my earlier post, but I took more pictures and measured. Was surprised that they all came out pretty close, all width and lengths came out within about 1/4 inch range total, largest (LF length) to smallest (RR width). But with 42 new pictures, I don't think I should put them all here. Suppose I may have gotten a little carried away, They're added to the album, though I am a day off on the file names. Equine Photos by SharpieBird | Photobucket

    The convex appearance of the rears isn't a trick though.

         
        02-02-2014, 03:14 AM
      #16
    Trained
    Well I certainly reckon they've come a long way! Afraid that without the pics labled at least Sharpie, it's hard to say what's what tho. It appears you have lots of before trim pics & not many afters? But not sure cos they're not dated. Seems that you measured before trimming but not after? I personally find it easier too, if you put them(the relevant ones) on the thread, rather than having to go elsewhere & only see them one by one.

    It appears that toes are still all stretched all round, and heels generally forward. So you would be getting a false measurement there, and quarters still have flares, so maybe likewise. Can't say from those angles how you should treat them from the ground surface, whether they need to be bevelled more, but I think the toes should be. The bars also look a bit run out and is possibly the reason for the neg plantar angles. Unwilling to comment further on that with those pics tho.

    As the majority of the flares are just in the lower extremity, I think you can safely take them mostly off from the outside of the walls too. I think treating flares like that is predominantly cosmetic, so not strictly necessary, but for boot fitting you'd be able to measure more accurately sans flares.
         
        02-02-2014, 02:47 PM
      #17
    Started
    Sorry about that Loosie! A) Thank you for looking, and B) I don't want to waste your time! Back in 'the day' Photobucket used filenames as titles if you didn't otherwise specify. I hadn't realized that had changed until you pointed it out, so now I have to go back manually and copy/paste all my file names as titles so people can see the picture dates and what/which the picture is. 129 pictures. In that one album. Ugh. I've got the ones from this year done already at least.

    His shoes were pulled and he was trimmed 13Jan14. It was a flat trim- no roll or difference between for shoes or barefoot, so one group of pictures is from before I rasped/rolled the edges a few days later, 18Jan and after. A few days after that, 21Jan I got a little more done.

    The group that shows first in the album is from yesterday, though I labeled them today- and I didn't do anything other than measure. They're 8 days after I last rasped anything. Do you think that's too long after to measure? I'm guessing that I could take a bit off already from your comments! :)
         
        02-02-2014, 08:29 PM
      #18
    Trained
    I thought it looked like there were also some earlier pics there, with them looking significantly different? Maybe I just confused. But yeah, I'd give them a really good trim before measuring & so long as you're not overthinning walls too much, only doing the lower 1/4 of the hoof, would remove flares & round off toes more from above, for the sake of more accurate boot measuring.
         
        02-02-2014, 08:52 PM
      #19
    Started
    Through the album there are pics from this year, last year, the year before...finally got them all re-titled. Glad I saw your links just after buying him in 2011- it's really cool to be able to look at them over time. I regret not taking any when he was shod by my previous farrier though- then I could compare what was working well then and what has been done recently to see how they were really different. I like the work and didn't feel the need a second opinion then though. Live and learn.
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        02-08-2014, 08:53 PM
      #20
    Started
    I rasped his feet to round off the edges and smooth out the places where he was self-trimming/breaking hoof wall by the nail holes so I could try the boots. He seemed more comfortable before I shortened the walls level with the sole than after- a little slower over the gravel strewn concrete (I know, worst potential footing possible). I think I will leave a little more length where the white line is not stretched next time.

    The middle of his frogs still look fat, the apex is trying to grow/fold over towards the toe a little, but the rear/heel bulb area hasn't changed much yet. The size 0 Easyboot Edges I got seem to fit 3/4 feet without an issue, fairly easy to get on and stayed on for a few circles at a trot on the lunge at least. The last foot, his front left, was a little tougher to get on, but seemed to fit okay and stayed on once he stepped into it and I pulled the gaiter out from under his heels. Like all the 'crazy' things I do to him, he tolerated them with good humor and seemed to be landing more heel-first, or at least flat, than he was a couple of weeks ago. His bars are more noticeable now, they're no longer completely level with the sole, but extending a little further.

    For this to go according to plan, along with diet, I keep his flares and toe length under control, and he builds up size, strength, and elasticity in his frogs, lateral cartilage and digital cushion by using them. Ideally always perfect heel-first landings, but also general movement and exercise so they can gradually become stronger and less sensitive, right? Being comfortable/sound enough to use his heels and feet to build those tissues is the priority?
         

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