Summer's Vet/Farrier visit
 
 

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Summer's Vet/Farrier visit

This is a discussion on Summer's Vet/Farrier visit within the Hoof Care forums, part of the Horse Health category

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        07-31-2014, 11:22 PM
      #1
    Foal
    Summer's Vet/Farrier visit

    So the chiropractor/vet and my farrier came today. Tues Summer had thrown a shoe, so her gait was off anyway. The first thing this vet did was have my farrier cut her feet way back. She and the farrier said Summer had underrun heels and was not growing like a normal hoof. Instead, her feet were growing forward instead of splaying out like they should (And it would explain the constant dish I see in her front feet - which I was beginning to worry it was founder). So my farrier did a 4 point trim, took her heels low, and did a 'Mustang roll' on the hoof itself. She said Summer was not hitting the ground heel first. She also told me it could be the root of all of Summer's problems. Her dragging her back foot, her falling, her strange gait at the canter.

    She also has slight seedy toe, which I will see what I can do for that. It's not severe enough to need any major work, but it's there and something I can help with immune 1, which she told me to keep Summer on, especially for how her feet are going to grow differently.

    I watched Summer after the trim, and instead of standing sway back (I was beginning to wonder where the sway was coming from), she had a rounded back. I watched her walk away and her hips were moving more like they should and her tail was no longer crooked. I also noticed her pasterns are angled much, much better than they were before. I really hope this works for her! The vet said that after a while, she wont even need shoes anymore, and if she does, she'll go up to a size 1 instead of being a size 0.

    The farrier did say her feet are better all in all from when I first got her. Both said her feet are better than most Thoroughbreds they've come across, too.

    Poor girl was sore afterwards, I tell you what. I got bute, and will see how she is fairing in the morning when I go to see her and feed her.
         
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        08-01-2014, 12:57 AM
      #2
    Foal
    Sounds like there is a lot of backstory to this that I have missed because I am new. It seems like you have good competent help for your jorse which is always a good thing!

    Depending on how long those feet really were, and how much was taken off in one go, it is natural for her to be sore. Hopefully it was not too much all at once.

    I love pics....if ya got' em, flaunt 'em!
         
        08-01-2014, 01:48 AM
      #3
    Trained
    Hi,

    Sounds like you could possibly be onto a good thing with this vet, sounds like she might know a thing or 2 about feet & that she was able to educate the farrier on how to trim better. Here's hoping!

    I do have a few questions, considerations on what you've said tho...

    Quote:
    Originally Posted by Blacklight    
    (And it would explain the constant dish I see in her front feet - which I was beginning to worry it was founder). So my farrier did a 4 point trim, took her heels low, .... She said Summer was not hitting the ground heel first. She also told me it could be the root of all of Summer's problems. Her dragging her back foot, her falling, her strange gait at the canter.
    Yes, stretched & chronically flared toes, esp with high heels is indeed indicative of disconnection of laminae between wall & foot, and 'rotated' P3 in relation to the dorsal wall, aka 'founder' or 'mechanical laminitis'. Did the vet suggest xrays to ascertain accurately exactly what's going on inside? I'm guessing that she was supposing it was due purely to bad mechanics, as you didn't mention anything about other factors of laminitis?

    Yes, too often I hear chiro's & such lament the fact that if only the client had a good farrier to the horse before they called for bodywork... Can be that 'upstairs' issues are behind hoof imbalance, but also commonly hoof probs which are causing the 'upstairs' probs.

    If your horse hasn't been using her heels & they have been high & contracted, they may well be too weak to cope with being put suddenly into a support role. If the horse is uncomfortable, he will be landing toe first regardless how 'ideally' his feet may be trimmed. Therefore, with high, weak heeled horses, I tend to take heels down more gradually, &/or provide frog support padding where necessary, to aid *comfortable* frog/heel stimulation & therefore their development.

    Quote:
    She also has slight seedy toe, which I will see what I can do for that. It's not severe enough to need any major work, but it's there and something I can help with immune 1, which she told me to keep Summer on, especially for how her feet are going to grow differently.
    If it's not severe enough to warrant serious resecting, I imagine it was very shallow & the farrier was able to just trim it out? Perhaps it was all in the stretched part of the toe which was able to be removed? I don't know what immune 1 is, but I would still be treating the seedy area topically as well, for the next few days at least, in case the farrier wasn't able to get all the infection - it can be horribly insidious if not treated assertively.

    Quote:
    The vet said that after a while, she wont even need shoes anymore, and if she does, she'll go up to a size 1 instead of being a size 0.
    Sounds like a surprisingly huge change from trimming alone (assuming she didn't even have any bodywork?). And the above is certainly possible, but... I just would be cautious of 'rose coloured glasses'. If your horse has had run forward, contracted, high heels for a long time & is mature, while you should definitely expect improvement with good management, it may be impossible for her heels to grow wide & strong. Also, many horses, even with quite healthy feet to begin with, if diet, environment, nutrition, etc aren't conducive, will still need hoof protection/support in some situations at least. Re shoe size, obviously without seeing the feet... perhaps she is anticipating the feet becoming greatly wider, but esp if hooves are run forward & flared as you describe, I generally expect hoof size will become *smaller* not bigger, when they become healthy & tight.

    Quote:
    Poor girl was sore afterwards, I tell you what.
    Missed this bit in first reading, only seen it now after replying to rest. Unfortunately it makes sense of her different way of carrying herself immediately post trim. Why was she so sore? While depending on circumstances, it is (very rarely) unavoidable that the horse is indeed slightly more sensitive following a trim, through no fault of the farrier, it is something that is commonly due to farrier error - taking too much off for eg(tho sounds like he was instructed to do so by the vet so wouldn't blame him anyway). What did they say about this & what(aside from bute) did they give/advise to do about it?? If it's due to too much material being removed from her already weak feet, replacing some of the 'armour plating' by padding her feet until they grow thicker should do the trick, but I'm concerned with the possibility of high heels being dropped so much & suddenly that it is tendon strain which is causing the discomfort, which is something that's potentially very harmful. - Another reason why I tend to drop high heels gradually.

    I'm sorry to play 'Devil's advocate' here but as Dr Bowker likes to say, it's not the unanswered questions that are the most dangerous, but the unquestioned answers!
    Blacklight and greenhaven like this.
         
        08-01-2014, 09:14 AM
      #4
    Yearling
    Quote:
    Poor girl was sore afterwards, I tell you what. I got bute, and will see how she is fairing in the morning when I go to see her and feed her.
    I teach natural hoof trimming and NO trim should make a horse sore. That means the trimmer over trimmed the foot somewhere (got too agressive).There are some types of so called natural trims that are NOT safe. Even the 4 point trim (designed by a vet in Kentucky) is designed to be safe and NOT make horses sore if done correctly. So there is no excuse for that. AND there is NO way that a trimmer should be combining a '4 point' and the 'mustang roll' on the same foot. Mixing and matching parts of different trims can be disastrous,
    Domestic horses often can NOT tolerate the so called 'mustang roll' because it shortens the hoof wall too much, and places too much pressure on a thin sole. Real mustangs sometimes have twice or more the amount of sole as domestic horses and can tolerate a lot more hoof wall being rolled off.

    Natural trims must be adapted to the individual horse and it's domestic environment, with safety guidelines to prevent them from ending up sore. If any trim is done RIGHT the horse should be as or more comfortable than before. Not sore.
    loosie, sarahfromsc and tmhmisty like this.
         
        08-01-2014, 09:16 AM
      #5
    Yearling
    Do you have photos of this trim? Also if the vet thinks it was OK to trim the horse so short as to make it sore enough to need Bute, you may need a different vet. Too. An overgrown, distorted hoof can be fixed in one trim without making it sore.
         
        08-01-2014, 10:01 AM
      #6
    Foal
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by loosie    
    Hi,
    Yes, stretched & chronically flared toes, esp with high heels is indeed indicative of disconnection of laminae between wall & foot, and 'rotated' P3 in relation to the dorsal wall, aka 'founder' or 'mechanical laminitis'. Did the vet suggest xrays to ascertain accurately exactly what's going on inside? I'm guessing that she was supposing it was due purely to bad mechanics, as you didn't mention anything about other factors of laminitis?

    Yes, too often I hear chiro's & such lament the fact that if only the client had a good farrier to the horse before they called for bodywork... Can be that 'upstairs' issues are behind hoof imbalance, but also commonly hoof probs which are causing the 'upstairs' probs.

    If your horse hasn't been using her heels & they have been high & contracted, they may well be too weak to cope with being put suddenly into a support role. If the horse is uncomfortable, he will be landing toe first regardless how 'ideally' his feet may be trimmed. Therefore, with high, weak heeled horses, I tend to take heels down more gradually, &/or provide frog support padding where necessary, to aid *comfortable* frog/heel stimulation & therefore their development.



    If it's not severe enough to warrant serious resecting, I imagine it was very shallow & the farrier was able to just trim it out? Perhaps it was all in the stretched part of the toe which was able to be removed? I don't know what immune 1 is, but I would still be treating the seedy area topically as well, for the next few days at least, in case the farrier wasn't able to get all the infection - it can be horribly insidious if not treated assertively.



    Sounds like a surprisingly huge change from trimming alone (assuming she didn't even have any bodywork?). And the above is certainly possible, but... I just would be cautious of 'rose coloured glasses'. If your horse has had run forward, contracted, high heels for a long time & is mature, while you should definitely expect improvement with good management, it may be impossible for her heels to grow wide & strong. Also, many horses, even with quite healthy feet to begin with, if diet, environment, nutrition, etc aren't conducive, will still need hoof protection/support in some situations at least. Re shoe size, obviously without seeing the feet... perhaps she is anticipating the feet becoming greatly wider, but esp if hooves are run forward & flared as you describe, I generally expect hoof size will become *smaller* not bigger, when they become healthy & tight.



    Missed this bit in first reading, only seen it now after replying to rest. Unfortunately it makes sense of her different way of carrying herself immediately post trim. Why was she so sore? While depending on circumstances, it is (very rarely) unavoidable that the horse is indeed slightly more sensitive following a trim, through no fault of the farrier, it is something that is commonly due to farrier error - taking too much off for eg(tho sounds like he was instructed to do so by the vet so wouldn't blame him anyway). What did they say about this & what(aside from bute) did they give/advise to do about it?? If it's due to too much material being removed from her already weak feet, replacing some of the 'armour plating' by padding her feet until they grow thicker should do the trick, but I'm concerned with the possibility of high heels being dropped so much & suddenly that it is tendon strain which is causing the discomfort, which is something that's potentially very harmful. - Another reason why I tend to drop high heels gradually.

    I'm sorry to play 'Devil's advocate' here but as Dr Bowker likes to say, it's not the unanswered questions that are the most dangerous, but the unquestioned answers!
    Well, for the laminitis, my farrier said he'd seen some scar tissue a long while ago. After he was done with her feet, the dishing was gone, and he didn't take so much off that she's now missing her toe. Neither were concerned or noted any laminitis while they worked with her. The farrier had only told me that it could be a chronic thing and to keep an eye out for it, since she had foundered before.

    She is sore because she's now on her soles, and she has tender feet to begin with. By the time all was said and done, she wasn't walking so badly, she was just avoiding rocky/pebbly ground even more than she normally does. I am getting boots for her to help with the soreness.

    Neither vet or farrier was overly concerned about the seedy toe, and by the sounds of it, he was able to trim it off.

    The farrier will be out again in 3 1/2 weeks to trim her again and to make sure her feet are growing like they should.
         
        08-01-2014, 10:06 AM
      #7
    Foal
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by Patty Stiller    
    Do you have photos of this trim? Also if the vet thinks it was OK to trim the horse so short as to make it sore enough to need Bute, you may need a different vet. Too. An overgrown, distorted hoof can be fixed in one trim without making it sore.
    I plan to get photos. She was due for shoe reset this week anyway, but he didn't put shoes on her just yet.
         
        08-01-2014, 10:33 AM
      #8
    Yearling
    This is how the 4 point trim is supposed to be used. Dr. Redden, who developed it., demonstrates. You will see there is no "mustang roll" involved because although the toe is rockered for break over, the hoof wall from the toe corners back is left INTACT so the pillars (ten and two o'clock at the toe corners) is left strong with the hoof wall SHARING the load with the sole there. If you roll the hoof wall off at the toe corners, you will very likely end up with a sore horse. That is why you should not mix parts of one style of trim other trims.
         
        08-01-2014, 06:25 PM
      #9
    Trained
    Patty, I wonder if it's in the interpretation of 'mustang roll'. I personally have not ever found a problem with 'mustang rolling' any foot I work on, and have only found, when the *very outer* wall is left at ground level with sharp corners, it's more likely to chip on hard ground. But to me, a 'mustang roll' is just slightly bevelling the outer edge, while I've seen people 'back up', 'roll' half or more thickness of wall... & all sorts else & call it a mustang roll.

    Got one today I've only trimmed once & had/has a 'ski foot'. I'll try to remember to get a pic & post it, because this one will be getting a strong 'back up' of the toe, and a 'mustang roll' on the rest of the foot as normal.
         
        08-01-2014, 06:53 PM
      #10
    Yearling
    Quote:
    But to me, a 'mustang roll' is just slightly bevelling the outer edge, while I've seen people 'back up', 'roll' half or more thickness of wall... & all sorts else & call it a mustang roll.
    Bevelling half or even 2/3 of the outer wall is just what I would call radiusing, rounding off so it doesn't chip, or "finishing". From every trimmer I have seen who does the "mustang roll" takes all the wall off the ground even sometimes rasping into the outer edge of sole so it is VERY aggresive in most cases.
         

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