Trimming to sole to tighten white line - Page 5 - The Horse Forum

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post #41 of 50 Old 02-28-2014, 03:51 AM
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Originally Posted by amigoboy View Post
You have 2 terminoligys:
Lamenitis where the lameni looks stretched like an akordian (the hoof rings seen from the outside).
Founder where the lameni has seperated from the hoof wall and the hoof is inflamed.

Stretched is a somewhat new term for me, I believe loosie and the others are referring too overgrowth in the toe area where you can see the lameni has stretched between the sole and the hoof wall.
I use the term 'stretched' as a bit of a catch-all, to mean the hoof is... well... stretched. Usually applies to the toe but can be wherever. Stretching is mechanical & can be treated & 'fixed' as such.

The terms 'laminitis' & 'founder' are essentially the same beast, but people use & understand them in different ways. Eg. They can be used interchangeably, to mean any level of metabolic or mechanical breakdown of the hooves. Some think of the term 'laminitis' as the metabolic, systemic stress(often relating to feeding grain, IR, etc) and think of the term 'founder' as the mechanical changes(eg P3 rotation or 'sinking') that can come out of laminitis if it's not treated effectively.

Some, as I've come to do, think of them interchangeably but that laminitis is the 'proper' veterinary term & founder is the 'lay' term. Eg. You can have 'low grade' laminitis without obvious hoof changes, you can have acute or chronic laminitis, with or without mechanical changes. So... that, I'd say you can treat the mechanics with trimming alone, but not the underlying laminitis *unless it's solely due to mechanical stress*. Or you could say, with the second description, that you can treat founder by trimming alone but not laminitis, or a horse who's hooves are well managed will not(I'm sure there are exceptions, but...) founder but it can still suffer from laminitis.

Clear as mud??
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post #42 of 50 Old 02-28-2014, 04:06 AM
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In the UK we do not use the term "founder" it is just laminitis (mild, chronic , acute. Etc). Low grade laminitis (LGL) being hoof sensitivity and changes in the growth of the hoof with possible stretched white line.
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post #43 of 50 Old 02-28-2014, 06:38 AM
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Ya that cleared up some things loosie.
In Sweden we just say Fång (founder) as the general term.
To me if you say lamanitis I think oh....bunner, well...he´ll get over it. Founder (hoof bone rotation)....oh crap....gotta look for a new horse.
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post #44 of 50 Old 02-28-2014, 10:36 AM Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by amigoboy View Post
You have 2 terminoligys:
Lamenitis where the lameni looks stretched like an akordian (the hoof rings seen from the outside).
Founder where the lameni has seperated from the hoof wall and the hoof is inflamed.

Stretched is a somewhat new term for me, I believe loosie and the others are referring too overgrowth in the toe area where you can see the lameni has stretched between the sole and the hoof wall.
Aha. I see the confusion I might have started. She has never foundered or had laminitis to my knowledge. I got her as a 2 yo. Because of the severe overgrowth of her feet, I assumed their was mechanical "stretching" of the white line or laminar wedge, whichever is correct. I wanted to give her a chance when I got her as a companion for my mare, and could see no "rippling" in her feet, and surprisingly no distortions in her coronet band and no signs of "ouchiness". Her feet grow at an alarming rate, as compared to my mare. And, just for what it is worth, I have never judged the previous owner b/c they had suffered a horrible family tragedy. Other than her feet, she didn't have a hair out of place, but was overweight and on a diet headed for total disaster.

There is just as much horse sense as ever, but the horses have most of it.
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post #45 of 50 Old 02-28-2014, 11:42 AM
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Ja, it can be confussing at times.
If you know or suspect founder in the family then you want to watch their diet.
Many will give just a good hay and some kind of supplement.
Keeping them active is always the best medicine.
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post #46 of 50 Old 02-28-2014, 07:56 PM
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Originally Posted by Missy May View Post
I should have "photo taking" capability back - soon. I have soaked these feet to try to get them softer. It doesn't help. The ONLY thing that helps is a good rain. Which we haven't had in many months. I have trimmed her bars (and the material beyond) in the past, and it grows right back. I hear P Ramey's voice say, if it grows back quickly, it is trying to tell you something.
Just a note of possible interest. I took my mare to the University to see a specialist as her hooves were driving me insane. Won't go into detail but her wl was folding in.

Specialist said when she found out that I was having the horses feet trimmed every two to four weeks STOP trimming so often. She said if you trim often the hoof will more than likely just continue to try to do what it is doing.

I let the hooves go for nine weeks (a first for us) and sure nuff the separation trimmed off which it never did before.
YAY for us. First time I've been happy with this girls feet in four years.
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post #47 of 50 Old 02-28-2014, 09:00 PM
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I have never figured out why it is called White Line Disease as it is the lamel which is affected...
It is called whiteline disease because in real whiteline disease the laminae is NOT what is affected . That's why. The un-pigmented layer of hoof wall (the WHITE layer) is the ONLY layer that the fungal infection eats away at. The laminae is actually unaffected. That inner layer of wall is white. Even in black hooves. So that is why it is called whiteline disease. .
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post #48 of 50 Old 02-28-2014, 09:07 PM
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Quote:
You have 2 terminoligys:
Lamenitis where the lameni looks stretched like an akordian (the hoof rings seen from the outside).
well, no. Laminitis is when the laminae are inflamed but have not necessarily separated yet. Horses can have laminitis but not founder.
Quote:
Founder where the lameni has seperated from the hoof wall and the hoof is inflamed.
Founder begins when the laminae begin to separate and the bone and hoof wall move apart at all .
Quote:
Stretched is a somewhat new term for me, I believe loosie and the others are referring too overgrowth in the toe area where you can see the lameni has stretched between the sole and the hoof wall.
Whenever the toe has run forward and pulled on the laminae and made it wider at the ground surface, but there has been no laminitis, it is stretched laminae. It is sometimes called "mechanical founder" . However since there is no laminitis present it is not true founder if the BONE has not moved inside the foot.
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post #49 of 50 Old 02-28-2014, 09:13 PM
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The terms 'laminitis' & 'founder' are essentially the same beast, but people use & understand them in different ways. Eg. They can be used interchangeably, to mean any level of metabolic or mechanical breakdown of the hooves.
Actually they are not the same beast. One is the disease of the laminae, and the other is the result.
Quote:
Some think of the term 'laminitis' as the metabolic, systemic stress(often relating to feeding grain, IR, etc)
The people who really understand this know that laminitis is not ALWAYS caused by metabolic issues. It can also be caused by hoof trauma, toxins, and systemic infections.
Quote:
and think of the term 'founder' as the mechanical changes(eg P3 rotation or 'sinking') that can come out of laminitis if it's not treated effectively.
That IS correct.

Quote:
Some, as I've come to do, think of them interchangeably but that laminitis is the 'proper' veterinary term & founder is the 'lay' term.
Again, that is incorrect. They are not even the same thing. Different terms for different things. One can cause the other.
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post #50 of 50 Old 03-01-2014, 02:08 AM
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Originally Posted by amigoboy View Post
To me if you say lamanitis I think oh....bunner, well...he´ll get over it. Founder (hoof bone rotation)....oh crap....gotta look for a new horse.
Amigo, while some horses/types can be more susceptible to metabolic issues & the likes, it's not just horses with 'family histories' you need to be careful with. Any horse is potentially at risk - it's more a 'lifestyle disease' rather than genetic - for a variety of reasons(as Patty says, it's not just metabolic in cause). I think that regardless of cause, diet/nutrition is vital consideration of 'treatment'. Laminitis of itself is quite often serious & needs more than an 'oh well he'll get over it' approach, and founder, if meaning it as mechanical changes, can indeed be fixed(before anyone assumes, not saying always).

Quote:
Actually they are not the same beast. One is the disease of the laminae, and the other is the result.
Patty, as said, different people/regions use the terms differently. As explained, I understand your terminology(used to use that definition), but it's not universal.

Quote:
The people who really understand this know that laminitis is not ALWAYS caused by metabolic issues. It can also be caused by hoof trauma, toxins, and systemic infections.
Absolutely. Don't forget bad mechanics/management It's not just fat ponies & grain fed performance horses even when it is 'metabolic' either.

Quote:
Again, that is incorrect. They are not even the same thing. Different terms for different things. One can cause the other.
It isn't actually incorrect, except by the sound of it, in your perception. As we've seen just in these few posts, there are some different ones out there, that I don't think it's right to say are all 'incorrect' either. Many vets use that terminology & as I sometimes work with vets, I've sort of 'adopted' it. IME there just isn't a universal terminology.
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