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X-rays of my mares front feet, what do you think?

6K views 46 replies 10 participants last post by  loosie 
#1 ·
Hi, I've noticed there are some very knowledgable people on this forum, so I thought I'd ask for some opinions. These x-rays were taken July 17. My mare was very sore. My friend thought she had an abscess. We didn't know so the vet was called out. I was at work and unable to be there so I don't know what kind of equipment was used.

I agreed to have the navicular series of x-rays done. I had just gotten the mare, and since she is a paint, there was the possibility of navicular.

Now keep in mind the mare is pigeon toed, so her joints angle inward, the left is worse than the right.

Thanks for looking!
 

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#2 ·
And.. The the other foot. She's had front shoes put on since the x-rays where taken. The shoes have made a big difference, but she's still a little sore. I feel she should be on a 4-5week schedule, but my friends farrier is every 6 weeks.

My vet also tells me she has navicular syndrom, the damage to the bone is irreversible. So the plan is to correct the angles and keep her on ati-inflammatory medication. She did recommend doing coffin joint injections.
 

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#6 ·
I'm seeing a slightly negative plane to the coffin bone (the left a bit more-so than the right), and super long toes that set the break over much too far ahead of the ideal 1/4" ahead of the tip of the coffin bone. By getting that toe under control, it should help to better align the bony column of the limb and allow the foot to follow the leg in motion with the help of break over, either rasped in or worked into a shoe.

What sort of trimming and/or corrective shoeing did the vet prescribe?
 
#8 ·
And.. The the other foot. She's had front shoes put on since the x-rays where taken. The shoes have made a big difference, but she's still a little sore.
WHAT KIND pf shoeing? Simply slapping on shoes for the sake of slapping on shoes rarely helps much. Certain KINDS if shoeing, done on top of ceretain kinds of trimming can help a lot though.

The toes of the feet were WAY forward, creating excess leverage at the toe as the horse tries to roll over the toes . That stresses the navicular bone, the coffin joint, and all the supportive tissues around the navicular bone. So.....was the long toe shortened adequately both from the bottom and the front? Was a shoe used that is specifically designed to ease the breakover ?
Was anything done to help protect the middle of the frog from impact? ( it lies directly under the navicular bone).
Was the obvious medial lateral imbalance (side to side imbalance) in the left foot corrected?

Did the vet even say anything about these shoeing and trimming issues and help direct the farrier in correcting them?
ALL of these things need to be correct and give the hose a chance to get better, even before you consider resorting to injecting the joint

You can stick needles in a joint forever if you want and not get much relief if the hoof imbalances that contributed to the navicular problems are not fixed first,
 
#9 ·
The farrier is coming Tuesday. I was not able to be there when the farrier was out last time. And my friend didn't show him the x-rays, like I asked. So I'll make sure he sees them this time.
As far as I can tell they are just regular shoes, nothing special. But you make a good point about protecting the frog.

The vet came this past week and looked at his work, she said she liked it but wants to see the shoe set back a little further. I'll communicate this to the farrier. And I'll get/or try to get some good pictures. :)

Thanks!
 
#10 ·
Look up Bowker's work (heavy but worth it) on 'navicular syndrome' for some more good info on what's going on inside... & how to help it change. While the changes to the navicular & P3 may never be 'cured', hooves can still become functional & pain free with proper management. Interested to see the pics that go along with the rads.
 
#11 ·
Plain (flat) , regular shoes do nothing to change the inappropriate forces inside the foot that caused the problems in the first place, so why bother? Setting the shoe back ENOUGH would help a little.
But there is so much more to the equation to get the most success. It's frustrating for some one like me to see when I know there is so much more that can be done.
 
#13 · (Edited)
I'm sorry, but those pics hurt to look at...

Just looked back at the rads. I imagine if rads taken now, it would be pretty much the same. The farrier(after seeing rads?) has left toes long & heels long, run forward & too low & completely unsupported.
 
#14 ·
Farrier wasn't interested in looking at x-rays. And he says, "they don't look that bad" referring to my mares feet.

I'm moving my mare and will have to switch farriers, any way. So maybe the new farrier will be better, or at least more interested.

What kind of shoes would you recommend in this case?
 
#21 ·
Farrier wasn't interested in looking at x-rays. And he says, "they don't look that bad" referring to my mares feet.
Um WHAT?? I would not let anyone TOUCH my horse after something like that. Regardless of what he thinks they look like refusing to look at the x-rays is..:shock::evil:.. How does he know what's going on inside? He had a blueprint for how her feet really and truly looked and decided to just wing it instead?

Sorry if I'm not making sense but I find it astounding and aggravating (to put it one way) that the x-rays were right there and the guy didn't want to see them. Why, does he know better? He could of at least given them a quick glance. Don't really know what to say about that...!! Don't let him touch your horse again. Glad you're switching. It sounds like a surgeon declining to see x-rays before they operate to me. Almost as absurd.


While I get she's standing on something in the second pic how come in the third it still looks like she has to be standing on something when she's not.
They're crooked and tilted and all over the place and I am not an expert. Regardless of "less important things" (they're not) like the heels and stuff I would at least expect my horse to be able to stand evenly.. Hopefully just a bad pic? Doesn't change the structural issues though.
 
#15 ·
I wouldn't, generally. I'd want to get them in better shape before shoeing, if necessary. But the new Easyshoes or similar with added frog/heel support would be my pref.

He wasn't interested in seeing the xrays?? :-( Yes, hopefully you can find a good farrier, and soon. Unfortunately, doesn't necessarily count for much that a farrier is recommended by 'people', so it's a good idea to learn what you can of the principles & practice, so you can make more informed opinions about the 'experts' you hire. Then, if possible, look at the farrier's other work before deciding on them doing your horse.
 
#18 ·
You kick that farrier to the side of the road. NOW.

Any farrier who is "not interested" in seeing the inner works of the foot has NO BUSINESS taking care of horse's feet.

Not to mention he doesn't know what he is doing, looking at your pictures of your shoe'd horse. Toes are long, the back of the shoe isn't set back far enough, heels are underrun. They are a mess.

Get a new farrier and you just might get your horse back.

Bad farriers just make me mad!

On a side note, I'm not an expert at reading x-rays but I don't see huge changes in the navicular bone??? Is your vet calling this navicular because they actually see changes in the bone? Or because they don't have a way to explain why the horse is lame (so they just "label" it navicular)?
 
#19 ·
Type of shoe is not as much of an issue as the TRIM. The HEELS are way too long, shoving the whole rest of the foot forward .
After the TRIM is adjusted then any shoe with a fully rolled edge would be better than a flat shoe.

And whatever shoe is used the toe of the shoe needs to be set so the breakover point (where the toe rolls over) is no farther forward than about 1/4" in front of the tip of the coffin bone.
Hence the need to look at the X-rays to help the farrier find that point, if he does not know how to map it from the outside.

If he knew how to map a foot to find the true center iof the INSIDES, the X-rays would not have shown such a "too forward" shoeing. In the absence of mapping the Xrays are a very useful blueprint.
Apparently this farrier could care less where the shoe is relative to the insides of he foot. It is so sad there are so many who were taught (and are still being taught ) just like him in the industry. In a way it is not his fault, it is the fault of whoever taught him.
 
#20 ·
Apparently this farrier could care less where the shoe is relative to the insides of he foot. It is so sad there are so many who were taught (and are still being taught ) just like him in the industry. In a way it is not his fault, it is the fault of whoever taught him.
I imagined that he just didn't have a clue, so the xrays weren't going to help him, & he obviously didn't care(or he wouldn't be so clueless & keep working), but you reckon they're actually *taught* balance of the bony column isn't important??:evil:
 
#22 ·
I imagined that he just didn't have a clue, so the xrays weren't going to help him, & he obviously didn't care(or he wouldn't be so clueless & keep working), but you reckon they're actually *taught* balance of the bony column isn't important??
They are taught that alignment of the bony column is important. BUT they are taught the WRONG ways to find it.

The old ways of looking at the foot miss hoof capsule distortion that totally throws them off. The more the toe gets run forward, the lower the hoof LOOKS, so they leave more heel in a misguided attempt to raise the hoof angle. So the very thing they are doing to try to help the alignment is actually driving the whole outer hoof forward, away from it;s correct relationship with the bones inside.
The poor farriers are creating the very problem they are trying to fix, because of the c r a p they are taught by out of date but well meaning mentors .
I did that very thing for over 14 years. Fortunately I spent the next 16 years fixing it. (At least the horses who had not eventually gotten so lame by the time of my 'enlightening' they were no longer with us.)
 
#25 ·
Hello, sorry I didn't want to start any farrier bashing, I was just disappointed in my friend's Farrier, she had such nice thing to say about him. :(

Patty Stiller, I'm sorry I couldn't answer your questions, because I honestly didn't know the answers. :(

I'm moving my mare in a week. This barn is one that I've boarded at in the past. The farrier that does her horses also does the horses of a friend of mine. I've seen his work and I know a mare he has been able to get sound. A lovely TB named Bre. Bre has (and I quote) " seven different things wrong in her front feet". Personally I'd love to see those x-rays. So I'm hoping to work something out with him.

In the one photo she is standing on a piece of mud that I forgot to brush off the bottom of her shoe. So that's my fault.
 
#26 ·
I'm sure I probably sound kind of dumb to some of you, but I've never had a horse with lameness issues before.
The vet came out two weeks ago and did some pressure tests. Although it wasn't a surprise, the only part of her hoof that she reacted to was the pressure test to the lower part of the frog (the part that sits below the navicular bone. ) I understand the "how" and the "why" my mare walks/ stands the way she does. I know she's off and uncomfortable. What I lack is the knowledge of the different farrier techniques that would "fix" the angles and help my mare. I know you all are trying to help. I do appreciate it. :)

I did however look up different types of shoes. I saw several that are square toed and designed to easy break over. I also though about pairing that with pads. I've seen pads made to cover and cushion the frog (considering that's where she hurts, it seems to makes sense to me to use pads.) I can't say anything in regards to trimming. I'm hoping The new farrier will have some ideas and suggestions on what to do for my mare. I'm going to keep an open mind.

Loosie, I will keep your boot suggestion in mind.
 
#28 ·
I'm sure I probably sound kind of dumb to some of you, but I've never had a horse with lameness issues before.
Mate, that's not dumb... unless you're talking 'dumb luck'! :wink: And ignorance is not the same as 'dumb' either - you've just learned that you didn't know what you didn't know, so you now know you need to know more.... & it's only 'dumb' IMO if you now *choose* to remain ignorant. :?....That made sense in my head anyway!:-|

I understand the "how" and the "why" my mare walks/ stands the way she does. I know she's off and uncomfortable. What I lack is the knowledge of the different farrier techniques that would "fix" the angles and help my mare.
Yep, better understanding of form & function will give you a better insight on the hows & whys of different treatment. Thread link in my signature is somewhere you could start. Very basically, to give you an idea, some different ways people approach it is...

The traditional idea about 'navicular syndrome/disease'(heel pain) is that it is incurable & degenerative, so treatment is aimed at palliative measures only. It's been found that preventing pressure on, and raising sensitive heels(& therefore changing the point of balance), can effectively relieve discomfort. So they often start with a heart bar or some such, then when that no longer works, heels are raised with wedges, getting higher when previous measures no longer work, then 'denerving' is an operation that can be done to prevent the horse from feeling the pain.

Then you've got the 'natural' approach. I call it that, because the current evidence of successful rehab of 'navicular' horses is centred on the 'natural hoofcare' principles & practice. Essentially, whether it's due to failure of development in the first place, environment, or from management(such as high heels, long toes & shoeing from a young age, for eg) many, many domestic horses have heels that are too weak for them to function effectively *& comfortably*. When this reaches a 'clinical' stage - that is, the horse is lame & vet is sought - it is often labled 'navicular' & if it has reached the stage that there are bony changes evident on xrays, it is 'confirmed'. Whether 'clinical', 'confirmed' or otherwise, the natural approach is to get the hooves well balanced and functional. So, toes & heels short, and weak frogs/DC's supported & protected, to allow the horse to be comfortable enough to start using them - & therefore strengthening the caudal hoof. It doesn't seem to matter much what bony changes there are as to success of rehab, although of course, the less damage before 'correcting' is started, the better.
 
#27 ·
I did however look up different types of shoes. I saw several that are square toed and designed to easy break over.
They will not do a whole lot of good for the long term unless the TRIM is fixed. Most of the problem in your horse is the HEELS.

IF a farrier follows the recommended TRIM and shoe placement that goes along with those shoes, they will get good results.
 
#29 ·
I am doing my home work. And the more I read the more I can see wrong with my mare's feet. This just makes me angry with the farrier and my self. He basically did nothing to improve the angle of my mare's hooves.

However, I think I've learned enough to have a good conversation with the new farrier.
My goal is light trail riding, 20-30min w/t 2-4 days a week. I'd be riding on grass/dirt, so no pavement or gravel. I believe once the angles are corrected, keeping her hooves in balance will help me reach my goal. I may still need to use some pain management depending on the amount of damage there is to the bone.

I want to try the "natural" approach as you call it Loosie. It'll be something to talk to the new farrier about.

P.S. I have read the link on your tag line Loosie, and I like Pete Ramey Hoof Rehab home. Horse hoof maintenance and care.. :)
I've also found articles on hoof angles, long-toe under run heel, navicular and on Dr. Bowker's research.
 
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