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xrays to share

This is a discussion on xrays to share within the Hoof Care forums, part of the Horse Health category
  • Ap hoof x ray horse
  • Images collateral grooves hoof horse

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    02-21-2013, 11:53 AM
  #21
Green Broke
Quote:
Originally Posted by gottatrot    
Do you see on the xrays the black area inside the heel? Black means air on xrays, and means collateral grooves that are too deep. That is from bars that have been left too long and are jamming up inside the foot. This is pulling the heel bulbs under as well.

Here is how I understand it:

Farriers often leave one side of the hoof longer than the other, in your case the outside. This causes the bars and hoof wall to jam up on one side, causing discomfort. The hoof wall will flare out on this side because the bars as they overgrow lay over and push the sole and wall out. This brings the heel more forward and gives the horse less heel area to stand on. The horse will then stand on the more comfortable side, in your case the inside.

To combat this, the bars need to be kept trimmed down to the sole level or just below so they can come out of the foot and begin growing down straight instead of bent over. The heels landing area needs to be brought back to the widest point of the frog on both sides equally. The hoof walls need to be kept even with the sole so the jamming can grow out.

The horse may have some bone damage in his legs and may not stand perfectly if this has been going on a long time. But his stance will improve quite a bit if his feet become comfortable. For him it is like having rocks in your shoes.

Here is an xray of a horse that stood crooked because of bar issues:

Wait a second, I'm a bit confused. In the x-ray example above, are you saying the bars on the left side (as I am looking at the x-ray) are the ones that are folded and need to be trimmed? What about lowering the wall on the right side?

I actually have a mustang gelding with similar hind feet but not as dramatic. He is sound and I have always been a bit perplexed as to how to deal with it, but as he is sound so I generally trim both sides fairly equal as to not "rock the boat" with a 20 yr old horse that is sound. BUT, looking at the x-ray example above, I would really have the urge to trim that medial (right side) and leave the left alone. Because it is obvious that the right side is jammed up really bad. Correct? If we kept trimming the left side lower, the disparity would just get worse.

However, as the left (lateral) side (on my horse) is the side that flares, I do inevitably trim that flare off. So yeah, I'm a bit confused on what you are saying.

PS. I'm not sure I am convinced that the bar is causing the issue but rather is a reflection of the issue. The real problem being that the hoof wall is badly out of balance?
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    02-21-2013, 03:29 PM
  #22
Yearling
Quote:
Originally Posted by princessfluffybritches    
found out how to get pics


Interesting, this M-L thing . If you look at the RF xray of mine, it doesn't look like changing anything.
BUT, if you lay on the ground in front of her, the Lateral wall is jamming, and made the coronary band higher.

This confuses me.
     
    02-22-2013, 05:30 AM
  #23
Weanling
Quote:
Originally Posted by trailhorserider    
What about lowering the wall on the right side?

However, as the left (lateral) side (on my horse) is the side that flares, I do inevitably trim that flare off. So yeah, I'm a bit confused on what you are saying.

PS. I'm not sure I am convinced that the bar is causing the issue but rather is a reflection of the issue. The real problem being that the hoof wall is badly out of balance?
It might have been confusing because I was addressing the OP xrays and also using the xray I posted as an illustration because the OP xrays did not have the contrast adjusted well to see the dark areas. So sometimes when I said "inside" and "outside" I was talking about the OP.

The most important thing is that the inner hoof is balanced. As you can see on the xray I posted, the inner foot is lower on the left side. The goal is to lower the right side of the inner foot. However, if you just lower the wall on that side, you will only be putting the horse in more pain because of the bars jammed up inside.

Don't look at which side flares, but rather look at which side of the internal foot is higher or lower (does he stand tilted to the inside or outside?) You will never fix a flare until you fix the issue that is causing the flare. Most farriers trim them off and make the hoof look pretty without resolving the issue.


See how the collateral grooves on the inside of the foot are supposed to be smooth and nice to stand on?

Now look what happens when the bars grow up inside the hoof. They get pointy and sharp. Can you see why trimming off the flare or lowering the wall does not help the horse's discomfort? Many farriers are not familiar with horse anatomy and don't understand that the bars are part of the hoof wall. They have to be trimmed and balanced, just like the rest of the foot. Look at this one: Ouch.


One last one: Look at how the wall has been kept down pretty well, but the bars are way, way longer because no one has trimmed them.

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    02-22-2013, 11:00 AM
  #24
Yearling
You are certainly a wealth of knowledge!!!! I see what you mean.
I think what's happened with mine is that the jamming was done with the trim 6-7 weeks ago. So, she was trimmed medial high, which the vet said caused the jamming on the lateral side. But that was 6-7 weeks ago prior to the xrays. With the xrays, The xrays were taken after she had 6-7 weeks to wear them as she wants them. So she had already corrected most of the imbalance herself.

6-7 weeks ago, she was trimmed medial high, but now is medial low if you lay on the ground and look. She was trimmed and I need to take pics, I know that she needs to be where her coronary band is parallel to the ground, and trimmed to functional sole as a guide. That's what I want.

Your posted pics are really good, Gottatrot. If her bars are still laid over, I'll trim them back.
     
    02-22-2013, 06:01 PM
  #25
Weanling
If the bars are jammed up inside they can appear to be growing faster than the rest of the foot, because when you trim them off more will push out from inside of the foot. This is a good sign so just keep trimming them frequently until they stop appearing more rapidly than the hoof wall.

This happens too when the hoof wall is jammed up; it appears to grow more rapidly than the rest of the foot because wall that has already grown was pushed up into the coronary instead of growing down to the ground. As the hoof grows, if there is no pressure from the ground it comes out of the coronary band as the same time as new hoof wall is growing, so there appears to be more growth than usual.
     
    02-24-2013, 12:38 PM
  #26
Yearling
Sometimes, you can trim a foot like that as much as you think you can, wait 30 minutes or till the next day and come back and trim a little more because of the elastic nature of the hoof structure and its ability to level itself out. This is why weekly or bi monthly trimming tweeks on rehabbing feet work so well to fix some issues barefoot quite fast.
     
    02-24-2013, 01:16 PM
  #27
Green Broke
A picture says a thousand words!

Hey Gottatrot, I think I just learned A LOT from your posts. (And Trinity, Loosie, et al, please feel free to chime in because I value your opinions as well!).

I have been doing the "barefoot thing" for many years now but never really understood why some folks were trimming the bars when the bars never really seemed to cause an issue (to me). But this speaks volumes:



I would bet money that if my Mustang's back feet were dissected that is exactly how they would look. Because they look that way from the outside and he has really deep collateral grooves and crappy frogs. I've been scared to lower the heels a lot of the back feet because he used to be a rope horse had has some wind puffs and old tendon issues back there and the vet advised me to keep those hinds a little more upright. But he has those badly slanted untrimmed bars on the lateral sides of his back feet.

The front feet I TRY to keep lowered and the heels down, but he never gets large healthy frogs like he should. But guess what? I never trimmed the bars because they never extend that much past the sole. Now I am picturing in my mind that if the bars are trimmed and jamming is the problem, then by trimming the bars it might allow the coffin bone to come closer to the ground and allow that frog to make contact like it should. Is that correct thinking?

I would guess that as long as person doesn't get carried away, jumping right in and trimming the bars somewhat assertively should do no harm?

I want to keep him sound and happy because he is at the moment. But his frogs certainly need help and if trimming the bars would do that, then I want to try it.

So will trimming the bars allow the boney column to come closer to the ground and improve the frog contact?

This might be the piece of the puzzle I have been missing in my trimming!
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    02-24-2013, 01:58 PM
  #28
Yearling
The way I've always looked at bars is that a frog allows give as the weight is placed on the back part of the hoof. This is important . The bars limit the amount of give that the frogs produce so the hoof doesn't go splat.

I feel that bars were meant to be level with hoof wall or a bit less, and frogs as well, because when the hoof gives , the bars and frog get their opportunity to touch ground.

If bars are laid over, they cannot do this. So they do need to be upright to have that relationship with the frog.

In my trimming days, I once took the bars too far down. My horse didn't move much for 5 days. Every evening my horse and mule had run around having fun. But my horse stopped doing this for over a week. Lesson learned.

Another time, I once took the heels down till they were at the fattest part of the frog. Big mistake. My horse had duck feet for a while. Thank God she was in deep sand. Lesson learned.

In a perfect world, heels come back to the fattest part of the frog, and the horse has the proper angle. But nobody's horse is perfect. And I have been told by several farriers that sometimes you are not going to get perfect. One said especially with the Tennessee walkers he trims. He said he has to find a happy medium because their hoof is a bit different. I think that has to do with breeding practices over a very long time. Other breeds have other problems.
     
    02-24-2013, 03:36 PM
  #29
Yearling
Bars you have to be careful with because when they lay over the sole, its very hard to tell where bar ends and sole begins. Much better to have upright overgrown bars from a rehab point of view. Easier to fix. Laid over bars thin the sole and compress into it and can be tricky to get them removed without making the sole sensitive there. But make no mistake, they need to be tamed back to where they should be over time. I often employ casting if I think I will have a tender horse that needed his laid over bars trimmed back a good deal. Laid over splatting out is the worst.

I have gaited horses and they have amazing feet. I have many many gaited clients also. East TN :) I trim them the same as I do any other horse. My opinion on gaited horses feet? I think its a fallacy to get in a mindset that we need to trim any horse differently because of its breed. It is certainly a mistake to trim/shoe so extremely different from what is natural for those crazy exaggerated gaits, to make a horses "Stride" bigger or for any reason at all. IME, gaited horses tend to have BETTER feet than other horses unless they have been altered for showing or neglected.

I trim many many different breeds and they all have the very same general principles with individual uniqueness to be considered, I can get many of them as perfect as they can be for THEM. Very few don't meet the mark and IMO, those horses just have too much damage to overcome and must be maintained however you can. I don't think of perfect as one picture. It depends on the horse you are looking at.

People say the very same thing about TBs having genetically bad feet, but they are a product of their environment and human intervention: feeding tons of hard feed young, shoeing not even 2 yo babies who have jello feet that are not anywhere NEAR done growing, running on hard tracks overworking undeveloped structures, etc etc. The ones that are left to grow and develop as other young horses usually are able to, fed a reasonable ration based around forage and turned out 24 7 over varied, well drained and hard terrain (not soft wet grass) grow beautiful sound bare feet that completely defy the current trend to classify TBS as genetically poor footed animals. They are a product of poor husbandry that thinks of human need first not the horses long term soundness and well being. I hate the racing industry for that. I wish these young races would be replaced by long distance runners and older horses like it used to be.

When a 2 or 3 yo TB flunks out of race training with terrible feet, they can often be developed well enough with some knowledgeable care almost as if the racing had never happened and grow a beautiful foot. If you get them early enough, get the race shoes off in favor of boots for awhile till the foot recovers, put a proper trim on them and turn them out, they recover and will often grow much better feet than their family lines tend to have. (As a rule. Always exceptions)

SO much about long term hoof health and soundness is nurture and development the first 5 years of a young horses life. There is a point a horse will pass that if he is left with those poor undeveloped feet, there can be no complete return. It can be improved but never be what it could have been with more promoting care as a young horse. Youth is absolutely in a horses favor when you talk about rehabbing bad feet.
     
    02-24-2013, 05:02 PM
  #30
Yearling
Quote:
Originally Posted by Trinity3205    
Bars you have to be careful with because when they lay over the sole, its very hard to tell where bar ends and sole begins. Much better to have upright overgrown bars from a rehab point of view. Easier to fix. Laid over bars thin the sole and compress into it and can be tricky to get them removed without making the sole sensitive there. But make no mistake, they need to be tamed back to where they should be over time. I often employ casting if I think I will have a tender horse that needed his laid over bars trimmed back a good deal. Laid over splatting out is the worst.

I agree. I've gotten used to not riding for a day or two after a trim. But that's probably become a habit from all the crap I've dealt with.

I have gaited horses and they have amazing feet. I have many many gaited clients also. East TN :) I trim them the same as I do any other horse. My opinion on gaited horses feet? I think its a fallacy to get in a mindset that we need to trim any horse differently because of its breed. It is certainly a mistake to trim/shoe so extremely different from what is natural for those crazy exaggerated gaits, to make a horses "Stride" bigger or for any reason at all. IME, gaited horses tend to have BETTER feet than other horses unless they have been altered for showing or neglected.

Maybe this is another belief I had from all the crap never being consistent enough to allow the healthy foot to grow. In the past 4 years, I've had farriers that trimmed to bring back the heels at the expense of a proper angle. I have always always told each one to give my horse a "meat and potatoes" trim. No long toes, get her angles up, ML balance. No one listened! I think you're right in that healthy hooves should be trimmed correct for the anatomy of the horse rather than breed or whatever. My xrays prove that. But my theory with mine is that angle and toe length come first and hopefully the heels will work themselves back or allow you to take a bit more each time.


I trim many many different breeds and they all have the very same general principles with individual uniqueness to be considered, I can get many of them as perfect as they can be for THEM. Very few don't meet the mark and IMO, those horses just have too much damage to overcome and must be maintained however you can. I don't think of perfect as one picture. It depends on the horse you are looking at.

I personally have always followed live sole with a 5 degree more in the heels. I wish the farriers had would have done the same. Most don't know what live or functional sole is!
But I have to choke everytime I say or hear this because there is a grain of truth to it. TWH have to have a longer toe. I compromise by not rasping all the hoof wall away to back up the toes.
The barn owner and family have owned/shown TWH for over 20 years (NOT built up shoes, just plain shoes). The BO always said a TWH won't gait properly with out the toes. I BLEW HIM OFF. (That just can't be true!)
However, he's talking toe that one might not even notice. Not some disgusting exaggerated toe. In fact in my xrays they are too long. I have tried gaiting with some toe and with a toe backed up. Several times. I can say that she is much easier to keep in gait and stay in gait at more speed with a toe. She gaits with a backed up toe, but it's more work for me to keep her in gait as I speed up. Again, I am not talking about exaggerated toes, just toes that the hoof wall equals the width the same as the rest of the wall around the hoof. Not rasping thru it. Maybe better bred TWH can gait without a toe at some speed. I dunno.

People say the very same thing about TBs having genetically bad feet, but they are a product of their environment and human intervention: feeding tons of hard feed young, shoeing not even 2 yo babies who have jello feet that are not anywhere NEAR done growing, running on hard tracks overworking undeveloped structures, etc etc. The ones that are left to grow and develop as other young horses usually are able to, fed a reasonable ration based around forage and turned out 24 7 over varied, well drained and hard terrain (not soft wet grass) grow beautiful sound bare feet that completely defy the current trend to classify TBS as genetically poor footed animals. They are a product of poor husbandry that thinks of human need first not the horses long term soundness and well being. I hate the racing industry for that. I wish these young races would be replaced by long distance runners and older horses like it used to be.

When a 2 or 3 yo TB flunks out of race training with terrible feet, they can often be developed well enough with some knowledgeable care almost as if the racing had never happened and grow a beautiful foot. If you get them early enough, get the race shoes off in favor of boots for awhile till the foot recovers, put a proper trim on them and turn them out, they recover and will often grow much better feet than their family lines tend to have. (As a rule. Always exceptions)

I've seen this happen so many times!

SO much about long term hoof health and soundness is nurture and development the first 5 years of a young horses life. There is a point a horse will pass that if he is left with those poor undeveloped feet, there can be no complete return. It can be improved but never be what it could have been with more promoting care as a young horse. Youth is absolutely in a horses favor when you talk about rehabbing bad feet.
Trinity, I think this is a great thread, there is certainly good discussion here!
     

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