AI Fresh Cool vs Frozen
 
 

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AI Fresh Cool vs Frozen

This is a discussion on AI Fresh Cool vs Frozen within the Horse Breeding forums, part of the Horse Breeds, Breeding, and Genetics category
  • Horse breeding fresh vs frozen
  • Does fresh or cooled AI semen work best on maiden mares???

 
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    04-12-2013, 11:48 AM
  #1
Green Broke
AI Fresh Cool vs Frozen

I know that when you do AI fresh cooled has a higher success rate as you have a bigger window of time for the insemination.

However knowing that frozen is very tricky as you have to get just the right timing in the cycle. Is it even harder in an older mare?

I ask as I am tempted to look at a couple of eventing stallions from Europe but I am weary as she is an older mare and frozen is tricky to begin with.

I know there are more fees to bring semen from over seas. But should I decide to go this route, is it better to go through an agent?

The likely hood of any of this happening is slim to none. I am just curious about the process and if its something I should even entertain.
     
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    04-12-2013, 12:14 PM
  #2
Started
I believe with frozen there is a 10% less chance of pregnancy due to timing. It all depends on how well the stallion freezes and your mare of course. Is she maiden or has had foals in past?
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    04-12-2013, 12:17 PM
  #3
Green Broke
Quote:
Originally Posted by MyLittlePonies    
I believe with frozen there is a 10% less chance of pregnancy due to timing. It all depends on how well the stallion freezes and your mare of course. Is she maiden or has had foals in past?
Posted via Mobile Device
She has had 5 foals. I know that it is tricky to get just the right moment in the cycle for frozen which is why I hesitate at the idea of frozen.

I am more interested in the results of frozen in an older mare and the process of shipping from over seas.
     
    04-12-2013, 12:27 PM
  #4
Trained
Quote:
Originally Posted by NBEventer    
She has had 5 foals. I know that it is tricky to get just the right moment in the cycle for frozen which is why I hesitate at the idea of frozen.

I am more interested in the results of frozen in an older mare and the process of shipping from over seas.
I think a lot of it depends on how savvy your vet is, how fertile the mare is and how big your budget is. If you're near a really good equine repro center that uses frozen semen all the time, I wouldn't hesitate IF the mare checked out really well and easy to get in foal. The very minimum check up I'd want on her is Culture, Cytology and Biopsy. The older she is, the more babies she's had, the more likely she is to have significant issues with being gotten in foal via frozen semen. Before I would invest in frozen semen shipped from overseas (the costs on the shipping alone will be horrendous), I would be very sure my mare was all but guaranteed to catch on the first try.

Even doing AI with fresh, cooled, extended semen can be very tricky, adding frozen into the mix, and especially coming from so far away it can be a real problem. The distance alone would make me think twice before I'd consider doing frozen semen from overseas. That's a lot of distance and time for it to get mishandled and be worthless once it gets to you.

What breed is your mare and how old is she? How long has it been since she was gotten in foal successfully by any method? Did she carry to term the last time and how long ago was that?
     
    04-12-2013, 01:14 PM
  #5
Green Broke
Quote:
Originally Posted by Dreamcatcher Arabians    
I think a lot of it depends on how savvy your vet is, how fertile the mare is and how big your budget is. If you're near a really good equine repro center that uses frozen semen all the time, I wouldn't hesitate IF the mare checked out really well and easy to get in foal. The very minimum check up I'd want on her is Culture, Cytology and Biopsy. The older she is, the more babies she's had, the more likely she is to have significant issues with being gotten in foal via frozen semen. Before I would invest in frozen semen shipped from overseas (the costs on the shipping alone will be horrendous), I would be very sure my mare was all but guaranteed to catch on the first try.

Even doing AI with fresh, cooled, extended semen can be very tricky, adding frozen into the mix, and especially coming from so far away it can be a real problem. The distance alone would make me think twice before I'd consider doing frozen semen from overseas. That's a lot of distance and time for it to get mishandled and be worthless once it gets to you.

What breed is your mare and how old is she? How long has it been since she was gotten in foal successfully by any method? Did she carry to term the last time and how long ago was that?
Thank you, very very very good points made and has given me a lot to think about.

My mare is 20, she will be 21 when I breed her, she is a reg Canadian Sport Horse(Belgian WB/TB cross). Her last foal is now 4 years old and she had a very easy delivery with no problems. She was bred live cover. She has a total of 4 foals on the ground. She has had 5 pregnancies though(3 live cover, one fresh cool AI ) and one aborted with twins and its because she was used for an embryo transplant from another mare and the vet didn't follow up with her care correctly and never did an US to make sure she wasn't with twins. It was a horrific experience. The vet was an idiot, when she started aborting he said she was colicing. FTR she was leased out to another farm for this so we had no idea what happened.

Anyway she has always concieved first try and carried to term and had no complications deliveries(other then the one horrid experience).

I don't think I will be breeding to a stallion from over seas. I just love some of the eventing studs they have there.
     
    04-12-2013, 01:33 PM
  #6
Trained
Quote:
Originally Posted by NBEventer    
Thank you, very very very good points made and has given me a lot to think about.

My mare is 20, she will be 21 when I breed her, she is a reg Canadian Sport Horse(Belgian WB/TB cross).
If she were my horse, I'd do the culture, cytology and biopsy to see how she's holding up for conception before I tried anything. Here's an article that explains the biopsy grading: https://www.addl.purdue.edu/newslett...mmer/eeb.shtml.

Anything more than a IIa and I wouldn't consider doing anything with frozen semen, and I'd start being hesitant about anything with extender in it. The higher the score and the lower your chances. I also insist that they do the cytology along with the culture because you can sometimes see something is brewing that won't show up on the culture quite yet. Some vets will try to put you off and say, "Well, let's just culture and biopsy and see how she goes.". I find another repro vet the minute they try that, it's only to get another call charge out of you and the cytology can show an impending issue before it becomes full blown.

At her age, I'd be very hesitant about using any kind of frozen semen, and I'd be prepared to get at least 3 shipments of fresh, cooled semen if you choose a stallion that is shipping from any distance and, of course, 3 vet costs as well. Since the shipping and insemination can run to WAAAY higher than the actual stud fee, I'd just be prepared with some good cash reserves before I even started. If you can find a local stallion, where you could take the mare to him, even if they collect and inseminate rather than live cover, your chances would be a lot better. If you can also find a stallion that they'll let live cover if she won't catch on the AI, then you will also maximize your chances of conception.

With a mare her age, I'd also be looking at being able to Regumate her for the duration of the pregnancy once she's safely checked in foal. It's expensive but if you can get her in foal, it'd sure be nice to keep her there. I've had vets say that you only need to Regumate up to 120 days, but I've found that in some older mares who chronically slipped their fetuses that keeping the mare on Regumate up until day 320 resulted in successfully getting a foal from a mare who chronically aborted.

"Serum progesterone levels greater than 4.0
Ng/ml are generally considered to be adequate
To maintain pregnancy. Mares with
Concentrations below 4.0 may be at some risk
Of pregnancy loss. It is often recommended
That supplementation with RegumateŽ
begin
Either 1 to 2 days after ovulation or after
Pregnancy is confirmed. Therapy is usually
Continued until day 120 of pregnancy, at
Which time production of progesterone by the
Placenta is adequate to maintain pregnancy. "

Just some things to consider, this breeding thing is EXPENSIVE no matter how you cut it, if you aren't using your own stallion.
     
    04-12-2013, 01:39 PM
  #7
Green Broke
Quote:
Originally Posted by Dreamcatcher Arabians    
If she were my horse, I'd do the culture, cytology and biopsy to see how she's holding up for conception before I tried anything. Here's an article that explains the biopsy grading: https://www.addl.purdue.edu/newslett...mmer/eeb.shtml.

Anything more than a IIa and I wouldn't consider doing anything with frozen semen, and I'd start being hesitant about anything with extender in it. The higher the score and the lower your chances. I also insist that they do the cytology along with the culture because you can sometimes see something is brewing that won't show up on the culture quite yet. Some vets will try to put you off and say, "Well, let's just culture and biopsy and see how she goes.". I find another repro vet the minute they try that, it's only to get another call charge out of you and the cytology can show an impending issue before it becomes full blown.

At her age, I'd be very hesitant about using any kind of frozen semen, and I'd be prepared to get at least 3 shipments of fresh, cooled semen if you choose a stallion that is shipping from any distance and, of course, 3 vet costs as well. Since the shipping and insemination can run to WAAAY higher than the actual stud fee, I'd just be prepared with some good cash reserves before I even started. If you can find a local stallion, where you could take the mare to him, even if they collect and inseminate rather than live cover, your chances would be a lot better. If you can also find a stallion that they'll let live cover if she won't catch on the AI, then you will also maximize your chances of conception.

With a mare her age, I'd also be looking at being able to Regumate her for the duration of the pregnancy once she's safely checked in foal. It's expensive but if you can get her in foal, it'd sure be nice to keep her there. I've had vets say that you only need to Regumate up to 120 days, but I've found that in some older mares who chronically slipped their fetuses that keeping the mare on Regumate up until day 320 resulted in successfully getting a foal from a mare who chronically aborted.

"Serum progesterone levels greater than 4.0
Ng/ml are generally considered to be adequate
To maintain pregnancy. Mares with
Concentrations below 4.0 may be at some risk
Of pregnancy loss. It is often recommended
That supplementation with RegumateŽ
Begin
Either 1 to 2 days after ovulation or after
Pregnancy is confirmed. Therapy is usually
Continued until day 120 of pregnancy, at
Which time production of progesterone by the
Placenta is adequate to maintain pregnancy. "

Just some things to consider, this breeding thing is EXPENSIVE no matter how you cut it, if you aren't using your own stallion.
Thank you so much! I will be picking your brain for awhile I am sure.

I am prepared for the vet fees. This is why I pushed it to 2014(amung a few other reasons). I want to have a heavy cash reserve to make sure I am prepared for any and all costs that come up.

There is a local stallion that I have been considering who does live cover. But I was hoping to bring some new blood into the mix in my area. Which would mean AI.

I intend on a full work up with all tests to make sure she is safe and sound for breeding and staying in foal.

Again thank you for all the information. I truly appreciate it.
     
    04-12-2013, 02:05 PM
  #8
Trained
You're very welcome! I have spent a fortune on breeding my mares and learning via the School of Hard Knocks and Busted Wallets. I have pretty much come full circle to the point where I own my own stallion, will collect him for someone else and will ship if they like, but I live cover my own mares. I've spent more than one fortune on shipped and frozen semen and while I would still do shipped if I needed to out cross or had a mare that wasn't the best with my stallion, I vastly prefer to do my own live cover.

When I started with shipped semen, the stallion owner pretty much went out and collected and then put enough extender in the mix to ensure the shipment would still have viable semen when it arrived. It wasn't all that different from doing live cover, just had a little extender. Over the last 20 years, I've seen the extension getting more and more dilute. Where we used to use just enough to maybe get 3 or 4 breeding doses out of a collection and have a good conception rate, the trend has been to use more and more extender to get more and more breeding doses from 1 collection. I've seen the conception rates go way down and the drug management needs for cycling the mares to way up. Especially with an aged mare, I'd want the insurance of a stallion who would do live cover. It won't guarantee that the mare will get in foal, but it's a nice insurance policy when AI fails.
     

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