AI vs Live Cover? - Page 3

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AI vs Live Cover?

This is a discussion on AI vs Live Cover? within the Horse Breeding forums, part of the Horse Breeds, Breeding, and Genetics category
  • Live breeding horses hobble
  • "live cover horse breeding"

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    07-05-2009, 03:57 PM
I would always choose A.I. I think it is a lot easier on both mare and stallion and in some cases on the foals to. My aunt breeds reining/cutting horses and that's all she uses. I have heard horror stories of mares and studs being so badly injured they had to be put down. In my opinion I think A.I. Is the best choice, but for thoroughbred breeders they can't use, and why is that???
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    07-05-2009, 04:10 PM
A lot of factors in play - nice discussion, thank you.

We sold one of our PREs to the States to a lovely, caring, careful owner.

He went for a live cover - & the mare kicked him, broke his patella in 3 places, and he had to be put down. Heartbreaking.

    07-05-2009, 06:33 PM
Equimed - I sold a TB stallion to a lady out west and the same thing happened. He was dismounting off a mare, she double barreled him, nailed him up high on the hind leg and broke it in several places and he was euthanized

In my opinion I think A.I. Is the best choice, but for thoroughbred breeders they can't use, and why is that???
How much time exactly do you have to hear this tirade?!

The Jockey Club's Board of Director's is made up of very wealthy, very well established farm and stallion owners, who own farms in KY and FL and CA that have many hundreds of stalls for visiting mares. Each state that houses large TB farms employs thousands of people as these visiting mares get shipped in to foal out and then get rebred to these stallions and each of these stalls are filled to the tune of $25.00 ++ per DAY x several months that the mares are in residence. Think of transportation companies that make a large percentage of their annual revenues shuttling these mares around, blacksmiths, vets and feed stores in these States, the HUGE unfathomable economic impact if this was to stop. If AI was allowed and these mares no longer had to be shipped anywhere. It is truly mind boggling, plus these large TB farms owned by JC Board of Directors, would sit there with hundreds of empty stalls. It simply wont happen. It never CAN happen ...

They talk about "dilution of the gene pool if AI is allowed" and some such nonsense but money talks and anytime this subject comes up, it is voted upon and squashed with a 100% majority vote by the Old Boys in the Old Boys Club

Oh! And did I mention the State Run Incentive programs funded by each State, for foals born in those States??? HUGE business. Mind boggling money involved that Mare Owners pay into each year for the State run incentive racing programs. Stop sending mares to be bred, and stop having foals born in those States, bye bye to millions of dollars in incentive cash poured in annually

The Old Boys would never allow it, the State Senators wouldnt allow it

Arent you glad you asked now?!
    07-05-2009, 07:46 PM
Chat Moderator
TrueColours, I take it you are not a big fan of the Jockey Club. While I understand why if you don't like them. The boys in the club want to protect themselves, just like most people in that place. I don't blame them but I am not sure if I agree with them.

My opinion AI gives you a boarder selection of studs. However if you have a number of mares like the professional breeders and have a stud or two that you have a preferance to, live covering is cheaper and easier, after buying the stud of course. If the stud is local, I think it is easier on all way. Not have to getting the swimmers, put the swimmers in the mare, and anything else, just introduces the stud to the mare and let nature take its course. If I own a herd of mares and was going to breed them, and if I owned the stallion. I would pasture breed them.
    07-06-2009, 11:46 AM
IMO, AI is the wrong way to go. I wish that the AQHA would move in the direction of the JC but it will never happen. By keeping it to live breeding, it keeps the value of the offspring up and the value of the stallion high. Once he is gone, that's the end of his direct line.

In the AQHA, you can conceivably have endless copies of Smart Little Lena, or Hollywood Dun It, etc. That drives down the values. A live breeding has inherent risks but done properly by pros and the use of hobbles (as an example) it is relatively safe.
    07-06-2009, 12:58 PM
Chat Moderator
That is something to think about Bill.
    07-06-2009, 04:27 PM
>>>> A live breeding has inherent risks but done properly by pros and the use of hobbles (as an example) it is relatively safe.

I have used breeding hobbles (I have a very good set that has not been on a mare in over 10 years!) and seen them used at other farms--- I am not a big fan. Mares are not born "hobble broke" but some farms assume they are and slap them on any and every mare. I have seen more than one mare panic at the unfamiliar feeling of restraint and scramble and even fall in hobbles, and have seen stallion get a foot through the hobble straps on the way up or down.... it is seriously scary to see one, much less two 1200 pound horses tangled up in a set of breeding hobbles. Mares can still kick in them, and depedning on the hobbles, can even break them. I am sure tht an acclimated mare can be hobbled safely-- I just think that they are more trouble than they are worth in most cases.
    07-06-2009, 06:26 PM
Lol thanks true colors. If you said it before sorry I did not see, but I do have one more questions... what does tirade mean lol??
    07-06-2009, 07:35 PM
Chat Moderator
Bill, While you are right to a point, AI also gives mare owners a wide selection of possible studs that would be possible otherwise. The way the AQHA allows things like embryo transfer, AI and I'm sure I have missed something, could be seen as too loose. And, each indivual looses some of the speciality of being a QH. Personally, I don't like how there is a "type" of QH for every discipline, I would like the AQHA to have one or two body types not the 8 or whatever there are now. No more than 3, 3 should be the upper limit. If this keeps up the AQHA could earn a reputation that almost any horse could be a AQHA. Similar to the American Warmblood weither registery or assication, whichever one less the looser requirements.

Tirade means a pact of three in this case: breeders, transportation companies, and state sentators.
    07-06-2009, 10:50 PM
*MY* definition of tirade is:

A snarky, persnickety narrative on the subject at hand ...

Kentucky - there are SO many ways this Jockey Club / TB situation culd be handled amicably to the benefit of everyone

There is no reason on earth why, if the JC were to allow shipped semen breedings, that ALL Live Cover ones need to stop. I could offer *my* stallion on an AI basis, whereas large KY, FL, CA, etc based breeding outfits could say "If you want to breed to Smarty Jones or Tiznow or whoever - its Live Cover and nothing else. Take it or leave it" thus protecting their investment in their facility and their support staff.

What is wrong with doing things in THAT manner?

Allowing AI would permit me to breed one of my mares to a TB stallion on the west coast that I would never ever have the option of breeding to as I would never ship a mare and foal that distance to be bred. It would also open up stallions overseas on a frozen semen basis whose bloodlines arent even in North America at all. Suffice to say that allowing AI would EXPAND the gene pool and not continue to limit it generation after generation which is exactly what is happening now with the LC only rule. Just try and find ANY TB's out there with no Bold Ruler or Mr Prospector in their lineage. Its virtually impossible to do ... It would also allow some of the infrequently used regional stallions to perhaps justify their existence by shipping semen out to Sport Horse breeders if that particular stallion would be a valuable addition to a sport horse breeding program and would serve to give the owners a few extra dollars in their pockets each year

No one is saying wipe LC out entirely. We are just asking for the choice to ship semen and open up our markets to Mare Owners that would otherwise not be able to use our stallions at all

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