breeding question... sort of
 
 

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breeding question... sort of

This is a discussion on breeding question... sort of within the Horse Breeding forums, part of the Horse Breeds, Breeding, and Genetics category

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        01-28-2010, 11:12 PM
      #1
    Yearling
    breeding question... sort of

    I was going to post this as a reply on another thread but it was too far off topic and I want to know what people think. So instead of possibly taking over that thread I thought I'd start a new one.

    I always see poeple on these breeding threads saying people shouldn't be breeding horses that don't have near perfect conformation, great bloodlines, have proven themselves in some disapline, etc. That's all fine and good and I understand where you're coming from. BUT if those were the only horses available out there I'm willing to bet a lot of us wouldn't have horses. After all, horses like that are going to cost a lot more than the one's with a few comformational flaws and unremarkable bloodlines. Most of us probably can't afford horses like that.

    Maybe I'm wrong. I don't know much about comformation and bloodlines and how that affects the price of a horse but it seems logical that the types of horses everyone wants to see breed would be more expensive. So I'd like to hear what people think on the subject. If I'm totally wrong I'd like to hear that too!
         
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        01-28-2010, 11:29 PM
      #2
    Yearling
    Conformation is how a horse is built. Meaning, say you have a horse that isn't built so well, and doesn't last too long. Would you want to carry on those lines, or would you rather breed for a horse that's going to last you a long time and not develop arthritis early on, due to conformation? A lot of the conformation faults at the joints(cow hocked, sickle hocked, over at the knee, back at the knee, etc) make it harder for the horse to colect and use themselves properly. Also, breeding a mare with poor conformation will make a pregnancy more stressful on the joints.

    A horse having proven bloodlines will affect the price greatly. You get more money for a well bred horse and also a better chance at the horse being successful itself. Nothing is guranteed in the breeding business, but it always makes the chances better.

    At this point in the horse market you can get a very well bred horse with good conformation for a very low price. Do a google search and look at the prices of the AQHA World Sale last year. The prices are ridiculously low, and some of those horses are the best of the best.

    And another thing I said before, breeding is NOT just to make more horses. It should be taken as an attempt to better the breed, one horse at a time. Why do you think only the best of the best get approved at keurings for warmbloods and such? They only want the best of the best carrying on the legacy. I used to think like you, until I woke up and realized that just because a horse is cute or pretty does not mean it is a breeding quality animal.

    I don't fully beleive that a horse needs to necessarily prove itself, but that horse better have **** good conformation to be a breeding animal.
         
        01-29-2010, 01:16 AM
      #3
    Weanling
    Yea I agree with Kassie. I understand what Amba is trying to say but there are a lot of horses out that shouldn't be breeding. Even if you only bred really nice horses there would still be a market for middle class because not everyone is going to be a world champion. If that makes sence. Kassie said it very well.
         
        01-29-2010, 01:26 AM
      #4
    Yearling
    Thanks. I was hoping I was making sense lol.
         
        01-29-2010, 02:13 AM
      #5
    Yearling
    In many countries outside the US, you have to have a license to breed a horse and each breeding must be approved. While it may seem like this will just create some kind of elitist, unaffordable horse population, it actually improves the overall quality of horses available and there are still plenty affordable horses to go around. Most importantly though, these countries do not have the problems we do with unwanted horses which end up being abused, neglected, and shipped to slaughter.

    Kassie made excellent points. I have an amazing TB with fantastic bloodlines and training and I got him for about $100. Someone couldn't afford to pay his feed bill anymore and donated him to my school where I adopted him. He's not the exception either, lots of people I know have gotten similar horses for very low prices (not all adopted like mine, but you get the idea.)
    EvilHorseOfDoom likes this.
         
        01-29-2010, 03:39 AM
      #6
    Trained
    You can breed two fine individuals and end up with a not so great horse so the entry level horses would still be there. If you breed horses with major flaws then you risk making horses that are so bad as to be useless. If the price of horses were to suddenly double I doubt it would keep most people from owning a horse, after all, buying them is the cheap part.
         
        01-29-2010, 06:01 AM
      #7
    Foal
    [QUOTE=tealamutt;536376]In many countries outside the US, you have to have a license to breed a horse and each breeding must be approved. While it may seem like this will just create some kind of elitist, unaffordable horse population, it actually improves the overall quality of horses available and there are still plenty affordable horses to go around. Most importantly though, these countries do not have the problems we do with unwanted horses which end up being abused, neglected, and shipped to slaughter.
    QUOTE]

    I live in sweden and mostley breeds needs to get aprofed by a jury that make sure they look good within the limits and don't have any problems with bonestructure etc. Some like the Welsh ponies nowdays "only" need a vet. To look at them, saying there's nothing wrong with the horse of what they can see/hear. And if they don't pass they won't be allowed to reproduce them selves.

    Still we got TONS of horses going to the slaughter house, or going to a child in a family there the parents don't know anything about horses.

    How come..? The mares never have to be seen by a vet. Someone that want "a cute little foal<3" but have no idea what they're doing go to the closest stallion no matter breed~ and get a foal, not caring how it will look or what it will be good for. When they sell it they don't even get the cash back for breeding it and the horse will just go from owner to owner (well some are lucky ofc) and finaly to slaughterhouse because they don't become what the owner want.

    It's the same problem no matter what ;(
         
        01-29-2010, 12:27 PM
      #8
    Yearling
    I live in sweden and mostley breeds needs to get aprofed by a jury that make sure they look good within the limits and don't have any problems with bonestructure etc.

    Still we got TONS of horses going to the slaughter house, or going to a child in a family there the parents don't know anything about horses.

    It's the same problem no matter what ;([/QUOTE]


    You're right, it is a problem no matter what, but your numbers are a fraction of what ours are (especially in the small animal world). One of my professors (at vet school) recently moved here from sweden where she was born and raised and practiced most of her life. She was blown away by how severe our over population problems are.

    Germany is one country where the system works fairly well. I had to explain to two visiting German vet students (who study in Austria) why we have all this horse slaughter legislation. The system isn't perfect anywhere but it is pretty bad here. Still not as bad as some of the things I have seen in developing countries like Morocco.
         
        01-29-2010, 01:06 PM
      #9
    Green Broke
    There are actually numerous factors in why people often reply with "you shouldn't be breeding him/her".

    The biggest one right now is economy - you only have to look out your backdoor to see how the economy is affecting people. If ever there was a time to REALLY not be breeding horses, it is now. The only people really dealing in horses right now are the professional breeders who make their livelihood from breeding, training and showing and continue to do so to generate a sort of income, which is what the same people who are buying these animals are doing. The average horse person has bigger things to worry about now then buying new horses, so the market for these subpar and mediocre horses is practically non-existant. This factor may subside a bit as the economy improves and a market for cheap family horses increases.

    Another big factor is that typically to me, the average backyard owner who is so blinded by their love for their own mare that they don't objectively see her faults is not experienced enough to be breeding anyway. These are the people that want to haul Bessie down to the local stud and get a foal for $200. They think it's that easy and never bother thinking of vet visits, vaccinations, proper nutrition or what the bill will be in emergencies. They are risking the life of their horse and their foal and for WHAT? For a badly conformed monster that maaaay have his dam's sweet temperment? He also may inherit the desire to bit your nose off everytime you look at him from his stud! These people don't stop and think about the consequences of their actions. And more often then not, if you can ONLY afford a $200 stud fee, you have no business even owning another horse because chances are you'll be forced to starve them or sell them anyway when things go wrong.

    It's not that I'm against breeding mediocre horses - it really IS your perogative. I have just virtually yet to see someone come on the forum and say "This is my mare, I know she has a few faults, but this is the reason why I want to breed her and why I feel I NEED to breed her, and price isn't an issue here, so could you let me know which of these studs you feel best compliments her?"

    I am a lot less against someone breeding with a very specific plan or goal in mind. No, we can't all be breeding champions, and some of us may not be interested in picking up the cheap PMU foal. But more often then not, when you examine all the actual costs involved with a proper breeding, you can almost guarantee you will be paying more money to obtain that foal then you would be to buy a weanling of same or greater quality anyway. It doesn't matter if your mare is a trail horse or a champion, the costs of breeding are always the "samish", so why waste your hard earned money on something like sentiment when you could be spending it on an already visible foal that has what you're looking for?

    My aunt has always said she will NEVER breed because it's such a crapshoot. You can have two of the finest parents and they still produce a fugly monster because of a flaw his great grand daddy had. She said for what it will cost her, she'd much rather spend her money on a horse she can already SEE has winning points. And she has an excellent point!

    Basically it all boils down to not breeding for emotional reasons - which is essentially exactly what the backyard breeder does. They are not breeding an animal for profit, they are breeding it because they "want a baby from their mare". Which is just a really super lousy reason with all the fine quality horses already for sale, bred by the professionals who know what they're doing.
    EvilHorseOfDoom likes this.
         
        01-29-2010, 01:06 PM
      #10
    Weanling
    Although indeed some of the horses we have wouldn't be here by (What is the right word?) 'regular' breeding.. Not sure how to explain myself here, flemish you see :)

    But indeed there can be a lot of problems coming up medically.
    And it's always nice to know where your horse specificly came from
         

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