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post #21 of 57 Old 01-30-2010, 05:58 PM
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The differance between showing dogs and showing horses is that with horses they can be altered and still show in every event.

Also with working lines there are events in which to show and prove horses. In the same way there are dogs. However with horses you can actually see the results on paper and get all the info needed to make good breeding decisions where with dogs you can not pull a get of sire or show records. They are not made public so you are left on your own. Which I have a big problem with as I to show dogs.

I find in both dogs and horses that conformation/halter horses are the big problem as they are not normally used past that in performance events. They are feed and lead animals. A true performance horse conformation is very important as it is needed to get the job done and stay sound.

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post #22 of 57 Old 01-30-2010, 06:08 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by nrhareiner View Post
The differance between showing dogs and showing horses is that with horses they can be altered and still show in every event.

Also with working lines there are events in which to show and prove horses. In the same way there are dogs. However with horses you can actually see the results on paper and get all the info needed to make good breeding decisions where with dogs you can not pull a get of sire or show records. They are not made public so you are left on your own. Which I have a big problem with as I to show dogs.

I find in both dogs and horses that conformation/halter horses are the big problem as they are not normally used past that in performance events. They are feed and lead animals. A true performance horse conformation is very important as it is needed to get the job done and stay sound.

Haha this is so interesting to me. So there are some correlations then. I don't know how most horse registries work - are the registries closed as in no new bloodlines can be introduced? I guess that would be hard to say, since most horse breed registries are individual, versus "blanket" registries for all recognized breeds in dogs. If horse breed registries are working off of closed studbooks, is there greater issues of certain genetic disorders becoming prominent among certain breeds, like mutations that can be traced back through the get to one prominently used sire, etc?
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post #23 of 57 Old 01-30-2010, 06:21 PM
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Each registry is different. I breed QH and they are open to TB that are registered with the Jockey Club. Paints APHA are open to AQHA registered horses along with JC horses.

Again each breed is different as to what they will let in.

However I do not use TB in my breeding program as they do not work for what I do. You see that cross in the more traditional English type events like HUS H/J and so on with in the QH breed.

Each breed of horses do have certain genetic disorders. However unlike most with the different breeds of Dogs we have DNA test for each. So you can breed them out fairly easily. Where with dogs you can not.

Also a big differance with horses at least registries like AQHA and other stock breeds. You can pull reports that will show you each registered foal for each horse what they have won and in what and what is the best crosses and so on. This if you really study it can help when it comes to breeding.

Ex. I was talking to my trainer the other day. I told him I had booked the mare who is up there now to Marthas Mega Jac and I got a good deal. He asked what I thought about anouther stallion they also stand there and asked why I had picked this stallion for that mare. I told him that first I like the HJ86 lines which he knew. I also told him that the mare he was riding her dam was a g-daughter of Poco Bueno and although it was not through Great Pine which is a very nice proven cross on HJ86 that is was still the Poco Line and should work very well. He agreed. If as a breeder I can not get this type of info I would be breeding blind in many way which is what you see with dogs.

-I'm so busy... I don't know if I found a rope or lost my horse.
-An Armed Man is a Citizen an unarmed man is a subject.
-Where ever free speech is stifled Tyranny will reign.
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post #24 of 57 Old 01-30-2010, 06:39 PM
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Originally Posted by nrhareiner View Post
Each registry is different. I breed QH and they are open to TB that are registered with the Jockey Club. Paints APHA are open to AQHA registered horses along with JC horses.

Again each breed is different as to what they will let in.

However I do not use TB in my breeding program as they do not work for what I do. You see that cross in the more traditional English type events like HUS H/J and so on with in the QH breed.

Each breed of horses do have certain genetic disorders. However unlike most with the different breeds of Dogs we have DNA test for each. So you can breed them out fairly easily. Where with dogs you can not.

Also a big differance with horses at least registries like AQHA and other stock breeds. You can pull reports that will show you each registered foal for each horse what they have won and in what and what is the best crosses and so on. This if you really study it can help when it comes to breeding.

Ex. I was talking to my trainer the other day. I told him I had booked the mare who is up there now to Marthas Mega Jac and I got a good deal. He asked what I thought about anouther stallion they also stand there and asked why I had picked this stallion for that mare. I told him that first I like the HJ86 lines which he knew. I also told him that the mare he was riding her dam was a g-daughter of Poco Bueno and although it was not through Great Pine which is a very nice proven cross on HJ86 that is was still the Poco Line and should work very well. He agreed. If as a breeder I can not get this type of info I would be breeding blind in many way which is what you see with dogs.

Ah, I see, so the access to the records of get becomes an invaluable tool! I wish there WAS something like that in the dog world - there is to some extent with conformation showing, but not with working trials so much.

There is actually a lot of genetic testing that can be done these days with a lot of the dog health disorders - the problem is people refuse to do it, or ignore the results when they do. I think that may be a major difference in ethics between most dog breeders and horse breeders. A dog can have a crippling eye disorder, be a known carrier of the gene causing the disorder, but if he wins a lot in the show ring people will still flock to breed to him. People place genetic health on the backseat to conformation quality, and shrug it off to say that if they eradicated all breeding to specimens with the disorder there would be nothing left to breed to. It's shameful, but a valid demonstration, I think, of where your horse registries are primarily populated with people who still want to do things the right way. Dog people seem to have lost those ethics long ago. I'm impressed by the difference, and it gives me hope with my own canine breeding program thanks for answering my questions!
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post #25 of 57 Old 01-30-2010, 06:54 PM
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The problem that I see with the testing for dogs is that a lot of if is subjective. For displasia and hips you have to go with x rays then they must be read. Thing is these things are subjective. Who took the x-rays who reads then now they are scored. It all plays into it. I have seen dogs who both parents tested good to excellent and have displasia more then once over the years. Altough it is better then nothing there is still room for error and it is not 100%. Also it could come down to many other factors with dogs.

Now with horses. Once they are tested that is it. The tests are DNA test. Ex. I have several horses who trace to Poco Bueno one is out of a g-daughter. PB is know for the genetic disorder HERDA. However there is a DNA test for HERDA. So I pull a few hairs pay my $30 send them into UC Davis or one of the other labs who run the test and with in a week I know for sure if my horse is a carrier or not. Simple. If they come back N/N then there is NO WAY they can ever pass this disorder. Simple easy cheap and it is 100%. Unlike most of the testing with dogs.

-I'm so busy... I don't know if I found a rope or lost my horse.
-An Armed Man is a Citizen an unarmed man is a subject.
-Where ever free speech is stifled Tyranny will reign.
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post #26 of 57 Old 01-30-2010, 07:16 PM
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I get that, I really do. And you are right, many disorders in dogs is subjective, such as hip dysplasia, even with OFA and Penhipp. But in my circumstance, working with Collies, the primary breed disorders, CEA (collie eye anomalies) and MDS (multi-drug sensitivity) BOTH have DNA tests to establish dogs as affected, as well as their carrier status. All my my dogs are normal-eyed.non carriers of CEA and they have all been tested as not having the mutated mrd1 gene responsible for MDS. But this is something most collie breeders do not do. The DNA tests are out there - they are admitedly more expensive then the one you mentioned ($180 each for the CEA test if testing multiple dogs, $75 for the mdr1 test). But many collie breeders do not test, and those that do will continue to show and breed afflicted and carrier dogs, because it is believed that 85% of the breed are carriers and it is particularly prevelent along show bloodlines.

I actually have another related question. (again, sorry for so many questions!) How often are horse breed standards edited and changed over the years? It's common in dogs for the parent club to elect to rewrite the entire breed standard to include or reflect current showing trends - which is why Collies have gotten bigger, Boston Terriers have gotten smaller, and show ring GSDs are almost unrecognizable. Does this happen a lot in the horse world?
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post #27 of 57 Old 01-30-2010, 07:48 PM
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They are not as there is no real breed standard and what there is plays no role in how a horse is judged. That is why when you look at a AQHA Halter horse they look nothing like a AQHA Western Pleasure horses who looks nothing like a Cutter or reiner with in AQHA.

-I'm so busy... I don't know if I found a rope or lost my horse.
-An Armed Man is a Citizen an unarmed man is a subject.
-Where ever free speech is stifled Tyranny will reign.
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post #28 of 57 Old 01-30-2010, 07:55 PM
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Fascinating...that would make all the difference!

Thanks again!
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post #29 of 57 Old 01-30-2010, 11:57 PM
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Personally, I feel that if people followed these rules, the price of a quality horse would drop because the supply of them would increase. So, technically horses that are above ones budget now wouldn't be expensive because the bottom of the barrel quality would be a lot better of a horse.... does that make sense?

Proud owner of 13yr old Paint Gelding, Bali! <3
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post #30 of 57 Old 01-31-2010, 03:20 AM
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Bali I think you just hit the nail on the head. :)
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