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Breeding Young Horses

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  • Young horse mating

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    10-04-2013, 03:50 PM
  #21
Trained
One of the top endurance horses in this country was bred at 2 and foaled at three. She has been ridden thousands of miles and always placed in the top ten and has numerous best condition awards. And still going strong at 8.
Endurance is a lot more demanding than circling an arena.
There is no evidence that breeding a 2 year old that is healthy and receives proper nutrition will cause any lasting detrimental harm.
I have never bred a mare that young but if I owned a filly that was well bred but injured and broodmare sound only I would breed her to see if she had a place in the broodmare band.
I have no issues breeding a mare 3 and up and have done so repeatedly.
There is no reason to not breed a mare that is not being shown or used for riding. I don't allow my horses to be broken until they are 3 but most 4 and sometimes 5.
It is not about greed but wanting to know what future the mare has in my herd.
I have never had a horse with soundness issues, hoof problems or bowed tendons.
Unless the horse has excelled at reining, cutting, barrels, endurance, jumping, dressage, or eventing I wouldnt give a dime for its show record. Shalom
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    10-04-2013, 04:17 PM
  #22
Trained
Quote:
Originally Posted by dbarabians    
One of the top endurance horses in this country was bred at 2 and foaled at three. She has been ridden thousands of miles and always placed in the top ten and has numerous best condition awards. And still going strong at 8.
Endurance is a lot more demanding than circling an arena.
There is no evidence that breeding a 2 year old that is healthy and receives proper nutrition will cause any lasting detrimental harm.
I have never bred a mare that young but if I owned a filly that was well bred but injured and broodmare sound only I would breed her to see if she had a place in the broodmare band.
I have no issues breeding a mare 3 and up and have done so repeatedly.
There is no reason to not breed a mare that is not being shown or used for riding. I don't allow my horses to be broken until they are 3 but most 4 and sometimes 5.
It is not about greed but wanting to know what future the mare has in my herd.
I have never had a horse with soundness issues, hoof problems or bowed tendons.
Unless the horse has excelled at reining, cutting, barrels, endurance, jumping, dressage, or eventing I wouldnt give a dime for its show record. Shalom
Yes there is... More so if the mare has never been ridden nor done anything worthy of passing on. Conformation and bloodlines alone are not reasons to breed a horse.

Just because an animal has a functioning reproductive tract does not mean that it should be bred. If injured with no future usability? Well breeding in that case depends on the injury... Not standing up to training and was injured? Don't breed it, etc, etc.
     
    10-04-2013, 04:49 PM
  #23
Foal
Quote:
Originally Posted by dbarabians    
One of the top endurance horses in this country was bred at 2 and foaled at three. She has been ridden thousands of miles and always placed in the top ten and has numerous best condition awards. And still going strong at 8.
Endurance is a lot more demanding than circling an arena.
There is no evidence that breeding a 2 year old that is healthy and receives proper nutrition will cause any lasting detrimental harm.
I have never bred a mare that young but if I owned a filly that was well bred but injured and broodmare sound only I would breed her to see if she had a place in the broodmare band.
I have no issues breeding a mare 3 and up and have done so repeatedly.
There is no reason to not breed a mare that is not being shown or used for riding. I don't allow my horses to be broken until they are 3 but most 4 and sometimes 5.
It is not about greed but wanting to know what future the mare has in my herd.
I have never had a horse with soundness issues, hoof problems or bowed tendons.
Unless the horse has excelled at reining, cutting, barrels, endurance, jumping, dressage, or eventing I wouldnt give a dime for its show record. Shalom
I have to respectfully disagree with the majority of what you're saying.

First of all, I don't think that Endurance (as a sport) is more or less difficult than any other discipline. Each sport requires a different skill set that puts the horses abilities to the test, and often great horses have their abilities pushed to the limit.

Secondly, there is sufficient evidence to suggest that breeding prior to the back being fully developed can be detrimental to a horse later in life. I don't believe that simply because it hasn't happened to you is legitimate "proof" when there are several scientific studies that have been done to prove otherwise.

Third, I completely disagree with breeding a horse that has not proven themselves. Since I don't believe that one should breed prior to 5 (preferably 6-7) or be on the road to finishing until then, it would be difficult to be a "proven" horse for a finished sport. I do, however, feel that being shown in hand and receiving recognition for equitation around age 5 is an excellent foundation.

Lastly, you mentioned that you aren't doing it because you're greedy, but because you, "want to know what future the mare has in (your) heard." I am sorry if I am misunderstanding, but that sounds like an experiment rather than a well planned breeding. You should have a good idea of where a horse stands without it being an experiment in your breeding program - that is just a huge red flag to me.
     
    10-05-2013, 02:52 AM
  #24
Trained
I own a daughter of Thee Desparado and a double bred grand daughter both mares are excellent examples of the arabian horse with refined heads and outstanding pedigrees.
I bred both this year at the age of 5 qand 6 neither are broke to ride and wont be for some time.
Both foals are already sold to well known breeders.
There are plenty of horses that because of their bloodlines and conformation alone deserve to be bred. Most knowledgeable breeders understand that.
There is no evidence that breeding a sound correct filly that is given good nutrition is harmful. NONE.
Not every filly should be and I never have.
NDAppy I stated that if a mare was injured and only brood mare sound. Not with a genetic flaw or major fault .
My mares are all trained at some time and are ridden. These two mares were purchased untrained and I have not felt the need to train either.
With 31 horses , a full time job, rental property, and a 3,000 acre place to manage that is not a priority.
All the mares I own except the elderly ones are broodmares first and foremost.
I don't show and see no need to until I start to promote Cassius.
We are talking horses here not children.
Imparting human morals unto breeding horses is unrealistic.
In the wild a 2 year old filly running in a herd would be bred they have evolved that way.
I always find it funny that people that would ride a horse at 2 or keep one in a stall, both things IMO are cruel and unnecessary , get self righteous about breeding practices.

Greed has nothing to do with any decision I make concerning my horses. Most will live out their lives at my place. I don't try and make any money from them if so I would not have 31 and about 10 over the age of 18. More than half of those over 25. Two over 30. Most breeders that breed for profit would have culled them long ago. Shalom
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    10-05-2013, 10:16 AM
  #25
Green Broke
Quote:
Originally Posted by dbarabians    
I own a daughter of Thee Desparado and a double bred grand daughter both mares are excellent examples of the arabian horse with refined heads and outstanding pedigrees.
I bred both this year at the age of 5 qand 6 neither are broke to ride and wont be for some time.
Both foals are already sold to well known breeders.
There are plenty of horses that because of their bloodlines and conformation alone deserve to be bred. Most knowledgeable breeders understand that.
There is no evidence that breeding a sound correct filly that is given good nutrition is harmful. NONE.
Not every filly should be and I never have.
NDAppy I stated that if a mare was injured and only brood mare sound. Not with a genetic flaw or major fault .
My mares are all trained at some time and are ridden. These two mares were purchased untrained and I have not felt the need to train either.
With 31 horses , a full time job, rental property, and a 3,000 acre place to manage that is not a priority.
All the mares I own except the elderly ones are broodmares first and foremost.
I don't show and see no need to until I start to promote Cassius.
We are talking horses here not children.
Imparting human morals unto breeding horses is unrealistic.
In the wild a 2 year old filly running in a herd would be bred they have evolved that way.
I always find it funny that people that would ride a horse at 2 or keep one in a stall, both things IMO are cruel and unnecessary , get self righteous about breeding practices.

Greed has nothing to do with any decision I make concerning my horses. Most will live out their lives at my place. I don't try and make any money from them if so I would not have 31 and about 10 over the age of 18. More than half of those over 25. Two over 30. Most breeders that breed for profit would have culled them long ago. Shalom
I agree. You make a good point about the disparity between the current attitude about breeding and the non issue with regard to everything else we ask horses to do which is a non-issue because it's benefiting a personal want or need. Forcing horses into show rings to perform in unsuited disciplines and ruining their minds and ability to trust just to get a ribbon is pretty detrimental. I also believe endless hours in stalls is cruel and starting them under saddle too young is as well.
Having great conformation and excellent bloodlines does indeed warrant breeding. Look at Rohara-- one of the biggest, most successful Arabian breeders in the world. They produce excellent stock before being shown under saddle and how many have gone on to National titles later?? I couldn't count them all. I, just a few days ago, got offered a Padron Psyche daughter bred by Rohara who was not shown and has had 2 foals- one this year by Progrom, and a filly in 2011, who went on to win 2012 Region 8 Arabian Yearling Filly Champion. Obviously she was bred somewhere around 4. I am seriously considering buying her. It's not everyday a young, broke, big-bodied, Padron Psyche daughter, who's a good mover falls in your lap. And I wouldn't feel the least bit put off that she join my herd.
If she's good enough for Rohara... she's good enough for me.
     
    10-05-2013, 12:53 PM
  #26
Trained
Druydess I understand that someone who has only one or two mares to breed wants to ensure they have a show record. You want to stack the deck in your favor as much as possible.
A show record will help promote and sell that foal and increase its value.
I get that.
When judges are fair and who trained, showed or bred a horse doesnt matter then I might change my mind.
How much silver is on a saddle and if it is the "in' colour should not matter.

The only way to prove breeding stock is to breed them. After entering the breeding shed that show record is irrelevant if a good foal is not produced.
Rohara is a successful program.
People who breed on a larger scale have differing opinions from small breeders.
If I do not break my horses to saddle until late in their 3 third year but mostly 4 why not get a foal out of a filly to see what she can produce?
The mare that I posted about earlier was not broken until 4 and did not enter her first endurance race until 5. By the way she carried a large man more than 5,000 miles. That is all the proof I need to know a good sound conformationally correct filly is not in danger of long term damage from carrying a foal.
I am not planning on breeding a filly at two. I like to wean them halter break them then turn them loose to be horses handling them every other day. No hurry here to prove a horses value. Shalom
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    10-05-2013, 06:29 PM
  #27
Started
I know a couple that purchased a four year old mare in foal at a sale. They found out after the mare had foaled (and lost the foal) that this was her second foal. She had been trained for the races, not made it and been put in foal as a 2-3 year old. This was the sweetest mare, who had the saddest eyes ever. I know that's not scientific but it just made you feel like this little mare had been used much to hard. Which may have contributed to her losing the foal. This mare had done more than horses twice her age. Her new owners promptly gave her some well earned time off to just be a horse.

I think 5-6 is a good age to first breed. In addition to knowing the temperament and potential of the horse the mare is done growing. Pregnancy and nursing are really hard on a horse and I want my horse be up to that challenge.

I can see the appeal of knowing if a mare is going to fit into a group and horses are basically big expensive money pits. That said, I don't know that I would breed a young horse because I want to know its potential. I will agree that a horse does not necessarily have to have a performance record to be a good broodmare. I think a mare that is well mannered, with good conformation and the ability to do a task (which may just be a trail horse or a therapeutic riding horse) can have a place in a breeding program. When that is done it needs to be an unbias opinion. What happens to much (IMO) is that people think snookums is a sweetheart who would love to be a mother. When in reality snookums is difficult to handle, an unreliable steed, has either not been shown or shown at local shows and is a conformational train wreck. This mare is then bred to pete's stud down the street and the result is just gah.
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    10-05-2013, 10:08 PM
  #28
Green Broke
Good points rookie. There are many talents a horse can have, and be good at them, besides a show ring. Some show horses I've seen are so freaked out being outside, they're useless. They do nothing else but run around rings.
Breeding conformational train wrecks is not acceptable. There are enough great horses out there that will produce excellent stock if one takes the time to research and plan.
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    10-05-2013, 11:06 PM
  #29
Green Broke
Quote:
Originally Posted by dbarabians    
My mares are all trained at some time and are ridden. These two mares were purchased untrained and I have not felt the need to train either.
With 31 horses , a full time job, rental property, and a 3,000 acre place to manage that is not a priority.
All the mares I own except the elderly ones are broodmares first and foremost.
I don't show and see no need to until I start to promote Cassius.

Greed has nothing to do with any decision I make concerning my horses. Most will live out their lives at my place. I don't try and make any money from them if so I would not have 31 and about 10 over the age of 18. More than half of those over 25. Two over 30. Most breeders that breed for profit would have culled them long ago. Shalom
I didn't have time to address these points-- had to see patients.

I find it interesting that some people assume simply because a horse is not shown in a ring, it's useless and does nothing. I have horses doing various jobs. Most trail, one just started competitive trail, several pack kids around, one does barrels, one reins-- and no-- it's not my QH-- she's a lazy thing..etc.. But because I didn't "buy" a ribbon to prove it.. they're not breedworthy. I actually think it's a great idea for horses to have practical jobs that doesn't require make-up, braids, and a personal secretary. The vast majority of people want usable horses that they can afford. THAT is the population that will buy.
Mine get schooled very well and are extremely well mannered, social, willing, and responsive. THAT is what the majority of people look for.
I also have a FT job, fortunately with incredible flexibility, so I prefer to spend my time with my horses... not chasing dubious ribbons of dubious value. With your point about Cassius.. I will show Dream (have once already) and Psynny only to get a few accomplishments for the record. I do this begrudgingly as I know too many top trainers who have shared the reality of it with me- and the entire system is corrupt. Imagine having horses returned with wires in their gums so they could shock them (they forgot to remove them before sending them back) ..all to make them stand up pretty.. Horse won though- so it's all good.
I find it ridiculous and unrealistic that people expect a horse to have a list of accomplishments as a yearling or even a three year old. I will NOT ruin my horse by backing him or her too early OR putting them in extremely stressful situation that can risk their health if they're not ready to handle it. That's abuse in my book. I have pulled horses from classes because I felt they were already too stressed,
I also do not expect to make money off of what I enjoy. I don't have to. There are different reasons for breeding and people have to get over their own biases and realize others live and choose differently. It's not your choice; it's the breeder's choice. I breed, care for, spend time with, ride, train wonderful Arabians because I can. I have the money, the resources, and the time. I can choose to sell-- or choose to keep. I will buy more, I will breed more, I will teach them to be outstanding citizens, and I will enjoy every second of it! It's a wonderful thing if it's done right.
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    10-05-2013, 11:19 PM
  #30
Trained
Quote:
Originally Posted by dbarabians    
I always find it funny that people that would ride a horse at 2 or keep one in a stall, both things IMO are cruel and unnecessary , get self righteous about breeding practices.
I would not ride a horse at 2, I would not keep my 2 year old in a stall, ad I as sure as all heck would not consider breeding her, because she is a baby, she hasn't done all her growing yet, she needs to move, and to mature, she doesn't need to carry me or a baby.
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