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color genetics questions

This is a discussion on color genetics questions within the Horse Breeding forums, part of the Horse Breeds, Breeding, and Genetics category

     
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        05-12-2008, 05:34 PM
      #11
    Showing
    Very interesting.
         
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        05-13-2008, 06:23 AM
      #12
    Weanling
    He could be a frame overo. No reason why not - either of his parents could have the gene and passed it on to him and you wouldn't necessarily see it in his colouring or theirs. Frame can present with as little as a small white sock. I'd get him tested if you want to know (although if he is going to be gelded it's not important, but it might be nice to know). If anything, I'd say you'd want to know whether the sire carries frame, so he can NEVER be bred to anything else tht does.

    He must have SOME kind of overo besides tobiano because tobiano alone does not put white on the face. It's very rare to get a horse that I purely tobiano with no other colour pattern (although it does happen).

    I dislike the term 'tovero' because it doesn't really mean anything - could be any one of 4 patterns along with tobiano.
         
        05-13-2008, 03:02 PM
      #13
    Yearling
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by Kyani
    He could be a frame overo. No reason why not - either of his parents could have the gene and passed it on to him and you wouldn't necessarily see it in his colouring or theirs. Frame can present with as little as a small white sock. I'd get him tested if you want to know (although if he is going to be gelded it's not important, but it might be nice to know). If anything, I'd say you'd want to know whether the sire carries frame, so he can NEVER be bred to anything else tht does.

    He must have SOME kind of overo besides tobiano because tobiano alone does not put white on the face. It's very rare to get a horse that I purely tobiano with no other colour pattern (although it does happen).

    I dislike the term 'tovero' because it doesn't really mean anything - could be any one of 4 patterns along with tobiano.
    This is dez:


    This is Blizzard, Dez' colt and our AQHA mare:


    It was my understanding that tobiano horses could have normal qh white markings on their faces. Don't Dez and Blizzard both have normal white facial markings?

    You think Dez could be a frame overo even though he is reg. Tobiano? What about blizzard? I assumed that he was tobiano because Dez was, and Dreamer is a solid qh?

    Blizzard will be gelded. Dez will stay a stallion. Does it seem like Dez should in fact be tested for frame? I thought he was clearly tobiabo?

    Thanks for all the help from all of you - I will get these color genetics one day. I find it interesting all of the negative traits that are linked with various color patterns. Frame - lethal white, Tovero - deafness (from what I read). :) :)
         
        05-13-2008, 03:20 PM
      #14
    Weanling
    Yes, he is tobiano, but you can have any number of patterns in there along with it!

    Face/leg white is a bit contentious. Some people will argue that you can have it with no paint genes at all, some people will say there has to be SOMETHING overo (usually sabino) for there to be face white. I'd tend to go with the second idea.

    Registered colours usually can't be relied on. A horse being registered 'tobiano' bascially only means that it has the tobiano pattern but god knows what else.
    Hey, people registering horses' colours often don't have a clue WHAT they're talking about. I've seen horses recorded as entirely the wrong colour, or even something that ISN'T a colour and registries will accept it.

    Looking at the parents, either one could easily have frame. The mare may be 'solid' in appearance but that doesn't mean she couln't have frame, or sabino. It's ALWAYS advisable to test.
         
        05-13-2008, 03:47 PM
      #15
    Yearling
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by Kyani
    Looking at the parents, either one could easily have frame. The mare may be 'solid' in appearance but that doesn't mean she couln't have frame, or sabino. It's ALWAYS advisable to test.
    The mare is AQHA, so I would assume has not genetics for any color patterns?? That also leads me to wonder about the facial markings - she has quite a substantial white mark on her face, and she is not paint/pinto or anything whatsoever. ??

    I can definitely test the daddy for future reference though. :) Though I don't have to worry about Frame breeding with our mare, but it will help to know for purposes of breeding with outside mares (which will likely be minimal).
         
        05-13-2008, 05:05 PM
      #16
    Weanling
    Yes, even if she is AQHA she could still have frame. Like I said, it can express very minimally and a horse with it can appear 'solid'. That which is why you get 'breeding stock' paints that are solid, but can still pass on their frame gene which may come out far more loudly expressed in their offspring, and it's why you get AQHA offspring popping up with paint patterns.

    If she is pure QH, the odds of her having it are less, but if the stallion turns out to have frame, I would say that's enough reason to test her too, because you'd never want to risk breeding that same pair again if they both have it.
         
        05-13-2008, 05:23 PM
      #17
    Yearling
    Breeding stock paints make sense to me - I was aware of them being able to carry pattern genes they don't express, but AQHA? She has very well known cow horse lines - doc bar, poco bueno, docs cutty sark, etc....none of which were paints...where would the gene come from?

    I will have him checked out for frame, but playing with the genetic calculator, and doing it myself...dez having a heterozygous overo (not sure what kind) sire and heterozygous dam - both offspring of paintXqh - Dez had a 25% tovero (whatever that really is or whatever it presents as), 25% tobiano, 25%overo (whatever variety), 25% solid. So...if he got that 25% where he became a tobiano, does that mean he carries a recessive gene of whatever variety of overo his sire was?
         
        05-13-2008, 09:28 PM
      #18
    Trained
    I think it's important to remember that the 'original'/foundation QHs were whatever the registry founders decided where QHs (I would guess based on color and conformation) and this was before genetic testing, so whatever genes those horses had are still in the QH pool (and the Paint pool, too)...and as with all genetics, there are still a lot of unknowns.
         
        05-14-2008, 01:27 AM
      #19
    Yearling
    It's really interesting! I will get dez tested first, and if he for some reason comes back Frame, will test Dreamer. :)

    I guess that might explain quarter horse crop outs huh? :) Dreamer has an awful lot of white, and specs of roaning down her barrel, so who knows if that means anything. :)
         
        05-14-2008, 05:57 AM
      #20
    Trained
    There is so much to read about horse color/marking genetics, but my gut tells me that crop outs would be part of the expected genetic appearance of recessive traits. Perhaps someone more knowledgeable will post/comment.
         

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