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Conformation VS Talent

6K views 36 replies 25 participants last post by  EveningShadows 
#1 ·
There have been a lot of good threads lately, so I thought I'd open a new discussion!

What do you believe is more important - conformation or talent? Would you forsake a champion stallion that had conformation faults? Would you forsake a conformationally sound stallion if he hadn't proven himself? What do you find is more important?

I say this because I think at times with the equine industry in the US anyway, often a stellar stallion with a lot to offer may be overlooked based on conformation alone. There are definately certain conformation faults we all tend to view as definitive no-no's, regardless of how talented the stud may have been. But is conformation really as important as proven worth? There are a multitude of talented champions in the world today, that most people would probably have looked at as foals and never thought they'd amount to a hill of beans due to certain imperfections. Should that be the deciding factor in not breeding an animal? How many horses have had ideal conformation and yet amounted to absolutely nothing - as a show horse, or as a breeding animal?

Very curious to hear opinions!
 
#2 ·
i think it all depends on the horse, if i found a great stallion that didnt have great confirmation but passed on his great talent than i would go for that horse more than the confirmationally correct horse bc like u stated a horse can be perfect confirmationally and still have no talent. but sometimes you can have a very talented stallion that either has great confirmation or doesnt but cannot pass on his great talent.
 
#3 ·
Talent is the result of training as much or more than any genetics, IMO. Before I bred to a stallion with conformation faults, I would really research any "genetic" talent he is capable of passing to his offspring.

If I was buying a horse, I would choose talent over conformation.
If I was breeding a horse, I would choose conformation over talent.
 
#8 ·
Talent is the result of training as much or more than any genetics,

I disagree with this to a large extent. If this was true then trainers like Shawn Flarada would be training any and every horse he could get cheap and selling them for big bucks. However he dose not do this b/c it dose not work. I have seen him go through 40 horses before he finds one with the talent that he can bring out and win with. If he could take any horse train it and win he would not need to do that.

A good trainer can bring out the talent with in the horse. Some trainers are better at this then others. Some trainers work better with certain lines then others but the talent MUST be there. The conformation MUST be there for the horse to stay sound.
 
#4 ·
I think that a certain amount of reason needs to be applied. If I used a scale to pick a stud and 50% went to accomplishment, 50% went to conformation then i would look for a horse that was in the 90's giving more weight to accomplishment. No horse is perfect, not Secretariat, not Impressive, not Doc Bar, etc..

90's with 48/46 accomplishment/conformation as an example.
 
#5 ·
I would go for coformation over talent, but there are a few faults I will overlook, depending on the discipline. For a reiner a horse that is slightly sickle hocked wouldn't bother me. For barrels being slightly cow hocked/sickle hocked wouldn't bother me, IMO it helps get their butt under them. I would choose a stallion that compliments my mare, not because he is pretty or has a good temperament.
 
#6 ·
For me I want to see a stallion or mare for that matter proven themselves in the show ring and retire sound. This tells me several things. One they can do the job in which I am looking to breed. They have the conformation to remain sound. Both these things are very important to me.

There is a line that I love in the Reining word however I tend to stay away from it b/c they tend to not stay sound. They do win however you rarely see them past the aged events.

I tend to look for the whole package. I can over look somethings and have if everything else is there.
 
#7 ·
For me I want to see a stallion or mare for that matter proven themselves in the show ring and retire sound. This tells me several things. One they can do the job in which I am looking to breed. They have the conformation to remain sound. Both these things are very important to me.

There is a line that I love in the Reining word however I tend to stay away from it b/c they tend to not stay sound. They do win however you rarely see them past the aged events.

I tend to look for the whole package. I can over look somethings and have if everything else is there.
^This is exactly what I was trying to say. I have a hard time putting my thoughts down. :)
 
#9 ·
I agree with Allison. I think that if I were buying a horse, I would want talent over conformation. For example, my American Warmblood mare is VERY talented over fences (so says multiple CCI**** event riders) but her conformation is less than desirable. But if I were to breed a mare, I would want her conformation to be almost flawless.

But I agree it really depends on the horse.

good thread!
 
#12 ·
When selecting a stallion I would have to look at the whole package and compare to what mare I had. Most horses kept as stallions will have few conformation faults and they will be minor. Temperment and trainability would be what would tip the scale between one stallion and the other. I don't know that I would worry too much about a stallion being "proven" or a money earner unless I figured on competing at a high level. For most of us quality training is the most important thing.
 
#13 ·
I think that a horse's soundness is the most important part to the package. No hooves no horse as the saying goes. Once you know a horse is sound then it is talent and finally conformation.

I ride a mare who is very pigeon toed. Her legs are getting better with corrective shoeing (thanks to an amazing farrier). And I would take her over a perfectly confromation horse with bad soundness in a heart beat. Sure we have our struggles with her confromation but they are really worth it in the end. She is very talented and worth the extra effort her confromation because of that little bit extra she gives everytime.
 
#15 ·
While I think there are alot of conformation disastors out there, and some of them quite talanted, for me, breeding, especially good breeding, comes directly from parents who are well conformed.

Does that mean that there aren't minor flaws? Absolutely not, but if there are flaws that will most certainly get passed on (like long pasterns, sickle hocks-even if minor, or cow hocks, again, even if minor), and hinder the capabilities of the offspring, then the parents shouldn't be bred.

No, talant does not mean a horse is conformationally perfect...he doesn't have to be, but to breed a horse JUST because he's talented? No thanks. I want the foal to be better built than his parents, and you don't get that by breeding a horse who isn't conformationally well built.
 
#19 ·
There have been a lot of good threads lately, so I thought I'd open a new discussion!

What do you believe is more important - conformation or talent? Would you forsake a champion stallion that had conformation faults? Would you forsake a conformationally sound stallion if he hadn't proven himself? What do you find is more important?

I say this because I think at times with the equine industry in the US anyway, often a stellar stallion with a lot to offer may be overlooked based on conformation alone. There are definately certain conformation faults we all tend to view as definitive no-no's, regardless of how talented the stud may have been. But is conformation really as important as proven worth? There are a multitude of talented champions in the world today, that most people would probably have looked at as foals and never thought they'd amount to a hill of beans due to certain imperfections. Should that be the deciding factor in not breeding an animal? How many horses have had ideal conformation and yet amounted to absolutely nothing - as a show horse, or as a breeding animal?

Very curious to hear opinions!
Talent. I mean unless the horse has really horrible confo to the point where we have health or soundness issues then confo.

I have seen some horses with absolutely horrible confo (some of which causing occasional soundness issues) competing at fairly high levels but they did so because of the enthusiasm and willingness to do it, in other words, their talent for it.

I would much have a horse with talent than correct confo.
 
#20 ·
IMHO, this is kindof a case of form following function. I agree that a lot that is lacking in perfect confo can be made up for in training; however, a good conformational base for whatever discipline you are looking for must be there. No matter how much training they got or with whom, it would be impossible for Dobe to become a grand prix dressage horse, nor would John ever be a cutting horse.

Allison put it best:
If I was buying a horse, I would choose talent over conformation.
If I was breeding a horse, I would choose conformation over talent.
In buying a horse, I would look for one with the inclination and willingness to do what I want, regardless of whether their conformation was perfect for it. If I was breeding, I would look for a mare/stud combination that would likely produce the type of foal needed for that particular discipline, I can do the rest with training.

However, I don't show at all, let alone top levels at anything. I can take almost any type of horse and make a functional ranch horse out of it. Any breed or type of horse can be taught to track a cow for roping or to cut a cow a little bit; it is only the ones that are bred for it that truely excel. When it comes to showing at NRHA, NCHA, or Grand Prix level, then both the conformation and talent has to be there.
 
#22 ·
thats a hard one... i think on the conformation side of it, it depends how bad the flaws are. a slight flaw doesnt bother me so much as a serious one does.

we have found with the racehorses that talent, well, i should say more racing style is passed on with breeding. for example, my broodmare was a scrict front runner, she could leave the gate like a rocket and was really strong and unable to hold back, once she got to the front she did everything in her power to stay there, and you couldnt race her out of the hole. her first foal showed the same thing in training and schooling races. she would try to leave like a rocket (though we try to train them to leave and take a seat to give better opprotunity racing) and wanted to be in the front and stay there. even young and smaller than her mother, she was incredibly strong and strong willed to win.

so really, hmmmm... if a stallion has talent and doesnt have major confo flaws i wouldnt overlook him, but if he has incredible confo, but no talent, i wouldnt bother with him. but this is coming from a racing standpoint
 
#23 ·
Breeding should always be for a specific purpose. To do so without a purpose--other than makin a baby-- is not fair to the baby. Life is hard and times are tough. Remember that 30 years is a long time.

The question really is--"what should I be looking for to give the baby the best chance to have a good life".

If that is the real question then the answer is__ only breed a mare that will pass on the right things to her foal that will give it the best chance. Pick the stud that will do the same.
 
#24 ·
I'm with Allison: if I buy - I'd go for talent, if I breed - for conformation.
Unless ALL off springs of the talented stud are as talented as him. Then it's something to think about and weight.
 
#26 ·
I think it really has to do with the type of conformation fault. I wouldn't breed anything, no matter how talented, that had any conformational issues in the legs. But if for instance, you had a very talented stud with something like a bit of a long back, or a short neck or something, you could always breed him to a mare with a shorter back (like an Arab! ;) or a mare with a nice long neck (like a TB) - with a conformational defect that is NOT in the legs, I think you can just balance the stallion with the mare. Of course, I've never done any breeding, so I don't have personal experience to work from, but I know lots of people who have bred lots of foals, and this is just something that I have observed.

Great thread by the way! :D
 
#27 ·
Excellent discussion! This may not necessarily add to the discussion, however I am with Allison in this, that when I am buying I look for talent, if I am breeding (which I don't currently plan to) I would pay more attention to conformation. That being said I am a buyer therefore I try and look mostly in a horses talent and willingness when I am being shown a potential horse. The saying "I never buy my horses for their color" has always stuck with me. I would rather ride my horse than look at it, so talent is more important to me than conformation.
 
#28 ·
thats a tough question! I think that talent comes from atleast part of the horses conformation. An example would be a horse having a short back, a short back is usually associated with being "short coupled," that is, short in the loin, making a horse of this conformation ideal for such agility sports like roping, cutting, and reining.
You cannot overlook if the horse is a idiot though. Ive seen beautiful horses that are that way and you cant hardly do anything with them because they are complete idiots and that comes from poor breeding. You dont breed just for conformation, you breed for attitude aswell. I guess it depends on the situation and the extreems but I think I would go with talent.
Alot of people breed a "Hot" stud with a "Calm" mare to try and get the daddys conformation and the moms attitude.
 
#29 ·
honestly? I think its very, very, hard to find a horse that has huge talent that at least doesn't have decent, workable comformation. That's not to say they aren't out there-those horses that are so horribly conformed that you wonder how anyone can ride them, yet still they suceed, but the majority of horses that suceed in their discipline have a conformation that, if it doesn't enhance their abilities, at least doesn't limit them.

so really, I look for both, but more so talent/personality than conformation. Because a horse can overcome a lot of his problems with proper training, same as a human can. But with conformation, I'm a bit more flexible - there are some things I'd accept and some things I wouldn't touch with a 10ft pole, because it doesn't even necessarily influence talent so much as soundness.
 
#30 ·
I use to think it was a lot more talent and personality than conformation and breeding when I first bought my Arab. He wasn't the best conformed animal I've ever seen especially with no muscle as he is now. He has a bigger shoulder for an arab and a slightly longer back than most but he is actually my dressage pony. I'm not saying he's FEI worthy really but he use to do pirouettes, 1 tempis and even lavade! He may not get 9's or 10's on his movement but we could go compete at that level and not place last or get laughed out of the ring...

Now I have a dressage bred mare by a weltmeyer stallion, "weltbekannt". Her mother is a CB mare with a giant head and a giant shoulder and built slightly down hill but she turned out quite lovely (very refined) with movement to die for! She is pouring with talent but now that I have a baby she is almost 7 with just basic training. Even though she has excellent dressage lines.. she would actually make a nice hunter which no one really expected of her.

If I were to breed my mare I would choose a stallion by their progeny above all else really... what does that stallion produce? All to often I think we choose based soley on conformation.. You see all these gorgeous Friesian stallions who do nothing and then their babies go on to do nothing but breed more pretty babies.. Good looks don't make a good dressage horse. I've seen my fair share of beautiful friesians that have less than stellar movement.. they plod along like any other draft type breed.

It really is a fine line: talent vs conformation which is why I like this thread... however like other posters have said... soundness probably trumps everything because ideally we all do this for pleasure and everyone knows its not very pleasurable to look at a gimp wasting away in a stall and doing nothing but costing you money. :eek:)
 
#31 ·
i think a stud stallion must have both, brood mares also but i think personality is more important with them so they bring up a nice foal. in general i think talent overrules confo. a lanky, gangly talented horse is better than a handsome, pretty horse with none, unless of course your forte is in-hand showing and thats all you need them for.
 
#32 ·
AWESOME topic idea!

The big thing I don't get though...alot of people agree that in buying a horse, you're looking for talent, breeding should be confo. If you're buying a horse for talent, then so is most everyone else, why wouldn't you breed for the same thing?

Personally I like the "in the 90's" approach that someone else stated. It should be a comprimise of both in my opinion. I think soundness relies on good conformation and how hard the animal is worked. If you're working your horse hard, even if it only has minor flaws, it won't stand up against the solid confo'ed horse doing the same thing. On that same note, a more talented horse is going to perform better even with minor flaws than the perfect confo'ed that doesn't love his job.

I've loved reading all the replies so far, keep them coming!
 
#34 ·
AWESOME topic idea!

The big thing I don't get though...alot of people agree that in buying a horse, you're looking for talent, breeding should be confo. If you're buying a horse for talent, then so is most everyone else, why wouldn't you breed for the same thing?
!

Because I believe that talent is more a product of good training than genetics. Certain things like natural movement and conformation can be more determined by genetics, but training is as much or more important.

"Reining, WP, dressage" lines are respected because people pick offspring from these lines to train in hopes of reproducing that initial horse's performance.
 
#33 ·
For me even in breeding it comes down to talent. If a horse has the talent to get the jog done in what I breed for and holds up and retires sound then they have the conformation also. They go hand and hand. You can have the best conformation in the world but if that dose not translate into talent who cares. I will not wast my time or money or my mare on a stallion who has perfect conformation but has not proven he has the talent.
 
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